Question about Rock Skin

[drathe]

Rock Skin states that it lasts until the Hero takes damage. What if... a Hero with Rock Skin lasts without damage to the end of the Quest and exits? Does Rock Skin continue? This was brought up in a recent game. Something I had never thought about before. Normally spells like this last until a Monster is no longer visible, which would automatically cancel the spell when the end was reached. This spell doesn't work that way. I see no reason it wouldn't continue to the next Quest, provided the Hero remembers the next time a Quest is played.

[Phoenix]

As a relatively fair game master, I would say that it expires at the end of the Quest. However, one could argue for certain Quest Packs that are played back-to-back, whether or not it remain in effect. I would like to believe that it would have a time limit of some sort.

[HeroQuestFrance]

Same here : it ends at the end of the quest.... and think about french card which just says "2 more dices for your defence to the next fight" (same for courage spell.... 2 more to the next attack ha haha rmm rmm)

[Daedalus]

This brings up an interesting tactic for the Wizard or Elf:

Wizard first. Wait to the end of a successfully completed Quest and cast Rock Skin just before you exit the stairway. Next Quest, immediately cast Rock Skin again for two combined bonus defend dice. Now he's up to 4 defend dice.
Take it further. Avoid unecessary combat and treasure pulls, only casting spells at a safe distance or attacking from a protected diagonal. He pretty much does that already. Next Quest he has five defend dice. Rinse, lather, and repeat until the Wizard is enough of a brick to safely occupy monsters in a fight. By Quest 10, he's got 12 defend dice and is nigh-invulnerable! A wuss no longer, he can confidently Search with 9 defend dice for all the treasure he wants by Quest 7.

Now for the Elf. Same stratagy as the Wizard, but the attack power of your weapon makes you more than just a rock tank. First buy the helmet or the Battle Axe, then later the chain armor. Either he has 8 defend dice (with a helmet) and a 2 attack-dice shortsword after Quest 5, or he has 7 defend dice (with no armor) and a 4 attack-dice battle axe after Quest 8 (or after Quest 7 with 14 gold coins donated from each of the other Heroes).

The Barbarian and the Dwarf with their pool of Body Points will probably have their hands full protecting the Rock Skin Hero from battle before he is ripe (*Pop* All gone! Or not -see my third reply down for an alternative -edit). Either would make a poor choice for the multiple-Rock-Skin spell effect, as their greater Body Points would be wasted.

Zargon would really be tasked by such an inflated uber-Hero, so he'd have to eliminate the threat early before the game swung irrevocably out of balance. On top of all that, if Zargon allowed the Heroes to regain spells after an unfinished Quest (as most groups do), then what's to stop the Heroes from only risking a minimum of rooms before casting Rock Skin, and then exiting the stairway? They then could immediately return for another Rock Skin boost. That makes it possible to cheeze a bunch of Rock Skin spells in a number of unfinished Quest 1's before attempting to successfully complete it. Hell, the whole group could have 12 defend dice when they finally decided to take out that pesky gargoyle Verag! Not that all of them would need to, as a single Hero could do it alone. So much for Mentor's advice about working together.

That nightmare could be avoided by playing to the letter of the rules found under p.23:

What Happens
Between Quests?
As a Hero, your starting Body and Mind
Points are automatically resored once
you have successfully completed the
Quest and have returned safely to the
stairway. All spells are then returned to
the Wizard and the Elf.

Note once you have successfully completed the Quest. The group's revolving-stairway cheeze is halted, as a new Rock Skin spell wouldn't be available until the Quest was successfully completed. To be successful, all the Heroes are probably needed, so Zargon would at least have a fighting chance to counter the Rock Skin gambit. Also note, however, that an already-cast Rock Skin spell could carry over into an unfinished Quest.

I'm betting most groups don't want this mess, nor the above rule to correct it. It's probably more trouble than it's worth. Therefore, I'll close my wall of words by saying Rock Skin should only be allowed to carry over if Zargon wanted to face the Rock Skin gambit and A) possibly modify unfinished Quests to punish cheeze or B) he used the successfully-completed Quest rule. In my opinion, A could require too much adjustment, and for most B is too restrictive (and also requires it's own modifications, see p.23, Unfinished Quests). For the vast majority, it's probably wiser to simply rule that Rock Skin doesn't last past one successfully-completed or unfinished Quest.

Personally, I'll try out Rock Skin lasting between unfinished Quests, governed by the successfully-completed Quest rule. As anyone can deduce, I have a passion for the HQ rules and am intrigued by the rules interaction as literally interpreted. The tactics involved should make play more interesting... or cause all hell to break loose- who knows?

[torilen]

AH HA! We run into one of the few problems that arise from a game with such simplistic rules. hehehehe

My opinion would be this. Sure...let the spell carry over. Should the wizard or elf desire to save the spell until
the end of the quest, just before they leave, so they can cast it at the open of the next for extra defense by
doubling the spell up, that would be fine.

However...I offer this analysis of the quest story line (and game system analysis):
1 - it would seem that there is a fairly great sense of urgency for the heroes to go from one quest to another
---------without much delay, and so would have little chance to go back to complete any unfinished quests...
---------i.e. if they skip some rooms and don't find treasure, too bad.
2 - if the group, as a whole, decides that there is some time between quests (at least for the original quest pack)
--------- that would allow them to go back to unfinished quests, how much time would elapse? Let's talk a bit of
--------- reality mixed into the fantasy here. How long would a spell actually last, even though the character has
--------- taken no damage? One day? Five days? A week? A month? Compare the spell to spells from other RPG's,
--------- and even to the effects of the artifacts within heroquest. The talisman of lore is supposed to be a great
--------- and powerful artifact.....very rare and special. This is because it is a permanent effect. Would a simple
--------- hero spell be so powerful as to last forever? I think not.
3 - As for a game system analysis - let's look at the spirit of the game and the original intent of the game designers.
--------- They wished to keep the game simple and easy to play. One way they did this was keeping all of the spells on
--------- one spell card each. Most spells say they end until there are no monsters in sight. They changed this spell so
--------- that it would end when a character took 1 point of damage...makes sense for the type of spell. BUT...would
--------- they have had room to add the portion about ALSO ENDING WHEN THERE ARE NO MONSTERS? Probably not,
--------- and so they left that out, in an effort to keep the simplicity of all spells being on one card each. Did they
--------- want to put it in there...my guess would be yes. I say this because of my experience with other game
--------- systems, and my hobby of fantasy game design that I've been working at for 10+ years. I've played around with
--------- all sorts of rules systems, both changing existing systems and creating my own.

With all that said...I would still say to let it ride. Offer some "extra" rules on how the spell can stack upon itself, and let
the wizard and the elf have some fun. If it seems that it is going to get a bit out of hand, throw in your own special
monster that can knock the crap out of them, give them some damage, and the spell is gone. Maybe it is a special
type of trap that they hit...hard to find...really specialized so as to cause damage no matter what, but it only causes
one point of damage. Something like that.

[Big Bene]

I think, if the heroes would venture to produce an over-defence, using the tactics Daedalus described, they would use much efford to very little effect.
Rock skin only lasts to the next fight, so the whole thing is over after one fight!
The tank hero could finish a single boss, which would be fine for me as the GM - the player would have used tactics, and can have his reward. But to aquire this, he would have to have avoided every single fight in a couple of quests. This is not an easy task (and may be also somewhat boring). I think players would try this once for fun, but then would decide it's not worth the efford.

[Daedalus]

Forgot about the Spell Ring. After successfully completing Quest 14, the Rock Skin gambit can take effect twice as fast. Can't remember how the Rock Skin artifact card is gained in Kellar's Keep, but it's there, too.
I'd recommend a house rule for those who don't want it to stack. Limit the spell's effect to a maximum of 1 defend die, even if more than one Rock Skin spell is cast on a Hero. That way, the spell wouldn't threaten game balance while still allowing it to continue into an unfinished Quest where it is really needed.

[Daedalus]

I think, if the heroes would venture to produce an over-defence, using the tactics Daedalus described, they would use much efford to very little effect.
Rock skin only lasts to the next fight, so the whole thing is over after one fight!
The tank hero could finish a single boss, which would be fine for me as the GM - the player would have used tactics, and can have his reward. But to aquire this, he would have to have avoided every single fight in a couple of quests. This is not an easy task (and may be also somewhat boring). I think players would try this once for fun, but then would decide it's not worth the efford.

Does the European version of the spell differ? Here's the North American version:

Rock Skin

This spell may be cast on any
one Hero, including yourself. That
Hero may throw one extra combat
die when defending. the spell
is broken when the Hero
suffers 1 point of Body damage.

The implication is the spell can last a whole Quest, or even beyond, as drathe brought up in the OP.

I agree avoiding combat for several Quests would be rather dull, as combat is so prominent in HQ. This wouldn't concern the Wizard greatly, as he usually attacks from a safe distance with magic or would later use the staff diagonally from a protected position anyway. The Elf gives up more, but also gains more when realized.

The motivation would be to tank-up and see what happens with the tactical benifits. The challenge for the other three Heroes would be to carry the burden effectively until the tanked-up Hero was prepared to shine. Zargon's challenge would be to decide how and when to defeat this threat. Choosing the right moment to challenge such a Hero could be very dramatic. I think there is only reason enough to try this twice- once for the Wizard, and maybe once for the Elf (or vice-versa). Eventually, I feel the successful Rock Skin tank must retire, as Quest balance would become too focused against that particular Hero.

I originally cooked this up to illustrate why Rock Skin shouldn't be allowed to extend beyond one Quest. But after exploring the implications, I began to see the merits of allowing the spell to do so- as long as there were sufficient checks in place for Zargon/Morcar to keep things fair.

[Daedalus]

Another interpretation:

If multiple Rock Skin Spells are in place, they may be broken individually by each Body point of damage.
Example: A Wizard with 3 Rock Skin spells in place and 5 defend dice suffers 2 Body points of damage. He now is reduced to 1 Rock Skin spell in effect and now has only 3 defend dice.

[Ethica]

How can you have more than 1 rock skin spell on, you either have rock skin or you don't.

Anyway, in the UK rules we get 2 extra combat dice in defence and it still doesn't seem to make much difference, maybe I'm not shaking them dice hard enough.