Why dragon are so hard...

[torilen]

There have been several discussions about the use of dragons for HQ. Honestly, I've always
had a hard time with dragons in D&D...even more so in HQ, simply because of the simplicity
of attacks and defenses and such. You want to balance the mighty awesomeness of dragons
with the possibility of the heroes winning at some point...maybe with the loss of a companion
or two (hey, it happens).

Here are some pictures that explain why dragons can be so hard to balance, especially in HQ.
(just for fun, really - because I find dragon pictures so hilarious sometimes)

http://www.playbuzz.com/jovita10/what-d ... -companion

http://graphicloads.com/wp-content/uplo ... agon-9.jpg

http://rolfqsamss.blogspot.com/2011/09/ ... paper.html

http://pinitgallery.com/photo/r/red-dra ... ers-3d/13/

[Count Mohawk]

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

According to Wizards of the Cost's marketing department, dragons are everyone's favorites, so it's no surprise people try to jam them into their dungeon crawls. The problem is that they are also exceptionally big and strong. Four roughly human-sized Heroes having a chance of killing one is already a stretch of the imagination, yet for them to be insurmountable obstacles is an inferior solution.

One of the Quest Packs I'm planning will feature a giant red dragon as the overarching boss. He's probably going to take up 4 squares on the board, with stats something like Move 12 | Attack 12 | Defend 12 | Body 15 | Mind 10, plus some fire-breath ranged options. I have no idea how I'm going to balance him such that the Heroes can actually kill him; even with 5 base Attack, the Heroes deal less than 1 damage per hit on average. Not to mention, Quest Pack bosses get to roll Blue or Orange dice at my house...

[Gold Bearer]

I have no idea how I'm going to balance him such that the Heroes can actually kill him; even with 5 base Attack, the Heroes deal less than 1 damage per hit on average. Not to mention, Quest Pack bosses get to roll Blue or Orange dice at my house...

Dragon slayer sword.
Fire immunity magic item (I think there's already one in a US expansion) or fire resistance potions.
Dwarf dragon slayer NPC.
Javlin of heart seeking or something along those lines.
A powerful new spell scroll that can only be used in that dungeon.

[torilen]

Don't get me wrong - I love dragons myself. Your stats are close to what mine are for regular, adult dragons.
Dragons as the overlords of a quest pack or campaign are perfect ideas - they're so powerful and lesser
creatures would tend to worship them as gods, but they're in the world and able to effect things around
them easily.
...
...
And I was going somewhere with this...I have no idea where, though. Ah well... ... ...

[sajungzak]

The key to defeating a dragon would have to be with a combination of artifacts, potions, and perhaps a special spell. Like, what GB said.

[cynthialee]

Dragons...
Ah the ultimate monster in some games are they not?


I have never really thought seriously about a dragon for a Hero Quest dungeon. Maybe in mirth a few times but in all seriousness ....
It all depends on the dragon.
Heroes of the Hero Quest type would be able to fight a smaller dragon perhaps if they had all equipment upgrades and a number of mercenaries for each hero. But a full blow critter like Smaug. Not gonna happen.

My players try and negotiate with Dragons first. No one wants to die here. The dragon wants to live, the heroes want to live, so it is not the best idea to fight it out.

But we do not parlay with monsters in Hero Quest so it is going to be a fight.

Dragon, Small
This beast takes up 2 squares of space.
Attack 5
Defense 5 Defends on all shields! (Dragon hides are tough stuff and they are enchanted beings)
Body 8
Mind 4
May take a fire attack 3 times per quest. Fills room or hallway with fire. All heroes and monsters in the room or downrange in a hallway take 4 dice damage that is only defended against with Black Shields.

Dragon, Medium
This best takes up three squares long and 2 wide!
Attack 7
Defense 6 Defends on all shields.
Body 10
Mind 6
May take a fire attack 3 times per quest. Fills room or hallway with fire. All heroes and monsters in the room or downrange in a hallway take 5 dice damage that is only defended against with Black Shields.
This Dragon may cast a single spell per quest. This spell is chosen before game of course and it is chosen from the Chaos Spell Deck.

Dragon, Large
This beast takes up 4 squares long and 2 squares wide.
Attack 9
Defend 8 Defends on all shields.
Body 12
Mind 8
May breath fire 3 times per quest. Fire will fill all hallways and rooms with open doors in the dungeon. All possible targets sustain 6 dice damage that is only defended against with Black Shields.
This Dragon may cast 3 Chaos Spells per game. The spells are chosen before play is started.

Potion of Dragon Breath Resistance:
This potion will fortify the imbiber against dragons fire to some extant. After quaffing the potion the drinker will defend against dragon fire with White and Black Shields. This effect lasts until the end of the quest.

Sword of Dragon Slaying:
This Long Sword may attack a Dragon 2 times in a turn. Furthermore the Dragon may only defend against the swords strikes with Black Shields.

Shield of Dragons Scales:
The bearer of this shield may add 1 dice to their defense and when under attack by dragon fire the first two skulls rolled by the Dragons fire are ignored before the defend dice is even rolled. If in a hallway or in direct line of fire of the dragons breath one hero directly behind the shield wielder on the adjacent may ignore the first Skull rolled by the Dragons fire.

Dragons Scale Armor:
This suit of armor provides +2 defense dice and is light enough that it provides no movement penalty. Further this armor provides partial immunity to Dragons fire in that the after fire damage is calculated against the wearer, the damage sustained is cut in half. Combined with the Shield of Dragons Scales this armor set is a dragon fighters dream.

Dragons Slayer Complete Set Bonus:
If a single wielder owns the Dragon Slaying Sword, The Dragon Scale Shield and Dragon Scale Armor then the wielder is completely immune to dragons fire.

[whitebeard]

"Black arrow" anyone? And not the "Hobbit movie" kind. Just a regular arrow that may or may not have come from the forge of the king under the mountain.

Honestly I would expect the dragon or the heroes to retreat after achieving the objective. The dragon cannot follow them through the doors and passageways. And if sufficient damage is dealt, the dragon may opt not to wait for them outside… or just eat their horses before they can escape and call it a day.

[cynthialee]

For a Black Arrow scenario you need a Ranger of pure heart, true cause and brave soul with a +5 arrow of slaying.

[Big Bene]

A possible solution when using dragons with the stats as above, could be that the dragon is too large to fit through most doors and passages. The heroes could use a hit-and-run tactic. You could define that the breath weapon doesn't travel around corners, so in a properly designed dungeon, the heroes could have a chance.
Of course, the core rule of turn order that figures can only move-then-act or act-then-move may render this concept impossible. I dunno, would have to think it more throughoutly or even playtest.
For "realism" of course the dragon's lair would have to have at least one exit large enough for the dragon to use, but there can be several smaller ones that the heroes can utilize for guerillia fight. The dragon would not normally use the large one, leaving his hoard, as long as those tiny robbers are still in his cave.

Having said this, I would point out that dragons in classic folklore are normally not as big and powerfull as in fantasy literature and games. They are defeated by the heroes on a regular basis. Of course, they are quite powerful, to show just how powerful/brave/witty/lucky the hero is. In essence they are archetypical symbols of evil or danger, wich the hero has to overcome, often solving some conflict that is in turn symbolic of general human conditions. The fight of the dragon and the hero is my no means "realistic", and questions how a real fight would work between a real human and a real creature with given physical attributes, are simply out of question.
Now, in a fantasy book or movie, which is set in a mythical world, but "modern" in style, readers expect in-story realism and coherence. Even more, in a fantasy game, a dragon needs to have stats to simulate interaction with the player characters. But everyone loves dragons, and simply tone them down is inopportune. This is why dragons are alsways hard to balance.


To solve this for Heroquest, I would go the way some of the above posts already took by suggesting special artifacts.
I would make the dragon the center of a series of quests and introduce a set of conditions that have to be met to defeat this special dragon. This would also be in line with many original myths and fairy tales.
Perhaps there could even be a prophecy of old, describing that some day a team of heroes will kill the mighty Chrxt by redescovering the sword of snow and destoying his heart-stone.

Conditions may include:
The dragon has one or more parts of his life force hidden in artifacts somewhere else, so these must be destroyed first, effectively weakening him.
Special weapons may be needed to pierce his hide.
Normal weapons may need a specail treatment by an eremite dwarfen master smith.
Heroes may have to be made immune to the breath weapon, for example by a bath in the blood of another creature.
Heroes may have to learn the weak point of the dragon.
etc. pp.

[Big Bene]

Just got an idea about an articulated dragon miniature where the front part and rear part have movement of their own to simulate the movement of a large creature in a dungeon.