Orc to Fimir jump in stats EU v US

[mitchiemasha]

Thinking about this after checking the BP for the Fimir US rules.

I think every one agrees that the EU monsters are too weak so with that out the way, we opt for American monsters. I've noticed that the conversion to American rules give the standard Fimir a larger step up from the standard Orc than what would seem right. The extra BP and extra Defence CD is a big jump, much bigger than just 1 of either. An extra BP is like an auto rolled shield, a huge jump. Remaining at 2D CD with an extra BP would seem better

What's peoples thoughts on this?

Would an Orc champion match the standard Fimir? shouldn't the Orc Champion be stronger? or am I right in thinking, the Fimir in HeroQuest isn't the standard and is a more boss like of it's species. That's the only theory I can come to to satisfy the rules.

[Lemmeron]

In theory a champion orc is just better equipped and more experienced in fighting, hence the high Combat Dice Pool for rolls, but if you manage to score a hit, well it is just a normal orc in terms of anatomy... Yet Fimir are all physically bigger and tougher to kill - so to actually kill one takes a few hits, or a bloody good one...

That is how i think of it, I hope that helps you

[cynthialee]

Depends on what constitutes a 'champion'.
Does an extra attack or defend dice constitute a champion? Does an extra body point mark the line? Maybe a combination of bonuses?

I tend to focus on equipment upgrades instead of extra Body points. But an extra Body point or two on a 'powerful' monster isn't out of the question.
Equipment upgrades make for the ability to add base combat dice without worrying about the monster being too overpowered. Once you add equipment upgrades and extra body points you are into the territory of elite level monsters.

[Anderas]

There's not only the US and the EU system.
I like as well the YeOldeInn Monster Scale someone was bringing up.

1BP 2BP 3BP 1BP 2BP 3BP 4BP 5BP

I was running tests with it and it fits much more the picture i have in my mind for these types of Monsters. Plus it sperates Mummys and Chaos Warriors a little bit. I am really a fan of it.


Back to topic.
Orcs are not built like men. Men are not built like Men. I mean, is the Barbarian 8 times bigger than a Goblin? Is he bigger than the Wizard? No.

Feel free to give an Orc some extra BP or extra defense dices if he is the Boss or even the Warboss.
The Fimirs are interesting because a lot of them have access to a Spells. They might even lead some normal Orc Boyz.

But apart from the normal Boyz, I wouldn't want to bet on the outcome of an Orc Boss fighting a Fimir. I guess they should be in the same strength range, sometimes the Orc Boss is stronger sometimes they are equal.
If you put a Fimir and an Orc Warboss (the really big one) in the ring, fighting each other, I'd bet the Orc Warboss wins 95% of the fights and loses the other 5% only because the Fimir uses dirty magic tricks.

Just think about one thing: Defense dice feel big if you have a lot of them. They also make a big impression on players. But they don't do much harm - you need three of them to equalize a BP - and they are unreliable. Imagine the YeOldeInn Gargoyle with his 5 BP is replacing all BP with Defence Dice - that makes 15 of them.
The YeOldeInn Gargoyle would lose his BP slowly, until finally there is none left; so he is strong, but you can reliably see and end coming sooner or later. If you give him 15 additional Defense dice instead, and 1 BP, it could be that he dies immediately - or in worst case, he could survive eternally, killing the entire group, depending on the luck of the day.

So here's your use - give him Defense Dice to make impression on the players and to give luck a role on the table. Give him Body Points to make him harder and if you want to spare your group unpleasent experiences like in my example.


Last but not least - If the Heroes have some equipment and their stats are, let's say 3/3 or 4/4, the basic Goblin, Orc, Skeleton or Zombie are just useless; worse, it can happen that it is no fun for Morcar anymore to put them on the table. If you want to keep using them, they really should have a little bit of equipment, leveling the Heroe's strong stats a little bit.

[mitchiemasha]

Anderas, that's a very heavy scale and would surely be hard to survive. Heroes would have to use every trick in the book (twist of rules) to survive. No leeroys against those stats.

Cynthialee. I'd probably give an Orc Champion 1 extra defence dice and an extra BP, plus a special ability... An extra attack seems a lil overkil but at least that would match with Anderas thoughts, which i'd expect, the Warboss being a step up from a Champion, he'd have the extra attack, now stronger than a standard Fimir US.

Lemmeron, yes i'm tempted to rethink it and have an Orc Champion fill the gap between the standard Orc US and Fimir US. Making the stats for the Champion Orc, the same as the UK Fimir. Then the problem of the gap, the jump in stats is filled. I use the AHQ chaos tokens for the EWP so special characters can be played, placed in a revealed room, if drawn. Orc Champions can turn up quite often.

[Count Mohawk]

I've never felt bad about the difference between the Orc and Fimir's combat capabilities. The Orc is much nastier than the Goblin because it attacks for three instead of two, which is much more likely to break through a Hero's Defend roll. The Fimir hits just as hard as the Orc, but is more difficult to kill. (And then there's the Chaos Warrior after him.) So I guess what I'm saying, in too many words, is that there doesn't need to be a linear relationship between the relative strengths of the monsters as you go up the table.

For those who say that equipment can't or shouldn't raise monster Body Points, I say this: Body Points don't really represent the amount of physical damage a character can take so much as the amount of effort in fighting it takes to bring him down in prolonged combat (which may include bonuses for species which are naturally harder to kill, of course).

Just think about one thing: Defense dice feel big if you have a lot of them. They also make a big impression on players. But they don't do much harm - you need three of them to equalize a BP - and they are unreliable.

One Body Point is worth as many dice as it takes to roll one walrus, divided by the average number of opportunities that monster has to defend before dying. For an Orc or any other 1 BP monster, this is unlikely to be more than two rolls, so your 3 dice to 1 BP rate works. However, buffing a Chaos Warrior (or similar) from 3 to 4 BP has a smaller impact than buffing its Defense value even by two dice, as the Warrior gets more chances to Defend due to its higher starting Body Points.

Also, I would consider putting the Orc Champion to 4 Attack as well as 3 Defend. Making it 3|3 seems like too small a change over the normal Orc to justify having its own piece. (I also play Orc Bosses with stats Mv 9 | At 4 (ranged 2) | De 3 | Bo 3 | Mi 2.)

[sajungzak]

In the HeroQuest world, Fimir often lead small bands of orcs. If there happens to be an orc warboss or champion in their midst, he should be second in command (as well as difficulty).

[cynthialee]

In the HeroQuest world, Fimir often lead small bands of orcs. If there happens to be an orc warboss or champion in their midst, he should be second in command (as well as difficulty).

Depends n the orks he is leading. I see ork warriors as power jealous and scheming. {Just let me get my hands on a heal potion and a good shield and the Fimir will be working for me....}

[knightkrawler]

I don't even see a real connection between orcs and fimir other than that tiny mention written for 10-year-olds in 1989.
I try to give both of them more ... personality. They begrudgingly are allied under Morcars promises, fimir to get their Imperial forests back from men (Out Of The Swamps), orcs to be, uhm, fed.
Both of them have their own warlords and champions which are, by the way, very far apart in stats. See Ulag, going to 4 AD/5 DD from 3/2 (EU quests; there's bound to be a champion halfway in stats).

[Baylor_OgreBane]

This seems like a good thread to bring this up in, But why is the UK/EU version different from the american version?
I mean the whole whole mind points thing to start with, UK version they are redundant, Then there are the quest maps with trapped doors and chests, the UK version doesn't have that, the different monster stats. Its almost as if we got a rushed out play test version and the US got a fuller more rounded version of the game.
The UK version seems a little too basic compared to other versions, is it because "we can no fink good" or something!