The Alchemist's Bench: drug pros and cons

[Sjeng]

I think it angered him because it's totally out of line to tell other people (who clearly know a great deal about the subject than you do) what they should or shouldn't be avoiding. It angers me too.

Wall of text. Lots of anger. Point me to where I was telling other people what they should or shouldn't be avoiding, and you and cp have a right to be angry.
Don't get your panties in a bunch.

@TMU: brofist.

[knightkrawler]

Thank you, Gold Bearer.
TMU, there's nothing to be proud of. NOT doing something is no success. Be proud of good school grades, of what your parents have achieved, of actively saying no after crystal meth has been offered to you and you felt the lust to try it. There's is no pride without experience and/or success. Else it's hubris and/or superstition.
One is proud of something managed or done with a degree of difficulty, not for leaving something be.
I applaud your decision, though. You're simply too young to make a different one. But, for heaven's sake, don't be brainwashed and draw the line which is not to be crossed BEFORE beer and cigarettes before you stroll around and brag about not doing drugs. The DAMAGE makes the reason, not the freakin' LEGALITY. Define your drug and do it adultly.
I'm not here to raise you, but I mean well, and you know that. You're 17 and should not even talk like this about the topic, because frankly, it comes off as premature. I'm twice as old as you, I've done a lot of drugs, and I have made the decision that I will not do anything illegal and very little alcohol six years ago, and the fact that I've managed in spite of all the pretty little effects I KNOW I LIKE is a reason for me to be proud of myself. See the difference? I'm managing to avoid something that I actually like.

I'm taking a deep breath now. This is also the last post I will have done regarding the topic. I still feel people who have actually something to say about something should say something and others shouldn't.
Who talks about football? He who watches it. Whose opinion on football matters is heeded? His who plays, coaches, or even just watches football.
Those complaining about it being a *lemony goodness* sport have the right to have that opinion, but they cannot talk about tactics or specific player skills with me, AND THEY CANNOT WALTZ AROUND BRAGGING THAT THEY AREN'T INTERESTED IN EVEN WATCHING IT.
If you're not interested in taking drugs because you think they do you damage, then don't do them. But if you mention it, don't forget to mention all the other things that you don't do, because they damage you: beer, sex, cigarettes, loud music, icecream, fried potatoes, failed love, french fries, supermarket chicken. GET THE IDEA?

Nobody who has at any given time made any consious thought during adulthood can seriously be of the opinion that harmful = illegal and vice versa.

Please, do not talk about the topic drugs anymore. It hurts to be told that it's worth more/more reason to be proud of oneself when you have always avoided something because of hearsay and media than when you've tried it, made the experience, and then, for a real reason, avoiding it: for me it was the freakin' addiction and the way I hurt myself and those around me.
Here's why being told that hurts: double standards. Sjeng, do you drink alcohol? Controlledly? Do you eat greasy little french fries with sweet sugary sauces? Controlledly? Do you inhale smog when in a city? Controlledly? Are you allergic to anything? How do you handle it?
Like I have said and Gold Bearer repeated, I will say it again: there is a harmless dose and an overdose for every kind of matter you give your body.

Sjeng, as an answer to your POINT ME comment: mentioning your own proudness of avoiding in a completely unrelated hobby blog equals pointing out that others should be ashamed for not avoiding. That point is made because nobody came to read the blog to know anything about drugs, so when you read it, there has to be a point to it.
And I didn't get any anger from Gold Bearer's post. Not one second. Just a grown up, experienced, and actually qualified opinion.

Also, naming the thread "Drug pros and cons" shows a degree of not grasping the topic one bit.

[StratosVX]

Sjeng simply stated that he doesn't use them and he hopes his son makes the same decision. At no point has Sjeng made any comments deriding anybody who has used or does use drugs. However, there seems to be people that have done the exact opposite and ridiculed him for his comment, even going so far as to say that he shouldn't pat himself on the back for not taking them. Why shouldn't he? Do you know his circumstances? Addiction is a major problem in my family history yet I shouldn't be proud that I haven't succumbed to drugs? Someone that was abused as child to the point of it being almost fatal not turning to drugs as an escape shouldn't be proud? There are a lot of reasons why someone should be proud that they haven't done something. Why is that and who has the right to tell someone else what they should and shouldn't be proud of? Even if you know the circumstances that someone is in, you never fully understand what they are dealing with. Go back and re-read the thread - Sjeng has never said anything bad about anyone that uses drugs. All he has stated are the reasons he doesn't use them. The same can't be said of the other side of the argument though.

CP - you say that Sjeng is just like a Christian because he chooses not to use drugs for his own reasons. Also, you made the comment "Every single great mind and author of our modern era used drugs." and then followed up with "So, have you ever heard of this thing called "Rock n' Roll" music?" alluding to the fact that drugs are what made them what they are today. Thantos replied with "i think it's an achievement to make yourself a success through just willpower and internal resolve alone." yet you took this as an affront against you. Do you think it's possible that he was referring to your allusion that you need drugs to be great and/or successful and not to the fact that you use them? (I say this because of your follow up: "Apparently I am an under-achiever who sedates himself from reality, instead of facing it like the guy who congratulates himself for avoiding something he knows nothing about. And congratulations to you for telling us all what a success is.") Nobody has attacked you but you seem to be attacking Sjeng quite a bit.

I have no problems with making drugs legal, nor do I have any issues with people who use them. However, to say that the risk of addiction and the actions that generally follow addictions should not be valid reasons for choosing not to take them, well that's just inane. You don't know if they have an addictive personality or if there are other reasons behind it. As for me, quite frankly I'm afraid that by taking drugs, I will end up like my father was and I don't think the risk is worth the pain (physical, emotional and mental) that I would cause to the people around me. People that have been through a lot less than me have turned to drugs to deal with their situation, so yes KK, I will pat myself on the back for not turning to them myself. Drugs are a choice like everything else in life and nobody should be derided for choosing to partake or to avoid them, unless those actions are hurting other people. Doing otherwise is childish. This isn't junior high for crying out loud. I don't believe drugs in and of themselves are problematic. The addictions that people get from them are. I have quite a few friends that were addicts and they hope their kids don't end up using drugs. There's nothing wrong with that.

KK - You say that not doing drugs is no success. For someone that has grown up around the addictions and who has avoided the social pressure from family and friends to use them, that is an affront. Overcoming urges and social pressures is an achievement in itself. Your view of not doing something is grossly over-simplified. Hubris would be someone growing up with in that environment and believing that they wouldn't be affected the same way as everybody else around them as been. You should be proud of overcoming addictions, but not falling into them in the first place can be just as big of an achievement when you know your strengths/weaknesses/limitations. Being proud in avoiding something does not mean someone should be equally ashamed in partaking in it. I have good friends that use drugs responsibly. They can do that and good for them. I know that I cannot so I avoid it. That doesn't mean I look down on them for doing drugs. Like CP, you seem to feel an attack where there is none.

Gold Bearer - Sjeng never did tell anybody that they shouldn't use drugs. Again, he only stated the reasons he doesn't do them. CP seems to feel he was being attacked and that has not been the case.

[torilen]

I an not going to sit here and read ALL of the arguments made for one side or another on this. I don't have time to waste for that.

BUT...I will say this. CP, in your response to sjeng saying he never did drugs...
Aside from medicine for headaches, allergy medicine, blood pressure medication, and the occasional drink, I myself have never done
drugs, either (I smoked a pipe for two weeks...nothing to see there). I don't do drugs because I really don't care to put that stuff
in my body...I have enough issues without things like that. It has absolutely nothing to do with society or how others think of me,
as you have suggested with sjeng (making his parents happy).

And from what little bit I did read...you say all successful people have done drugs? Is that what you said? I can't agree with that. I
could probably point to a whole mess of people who have been successful and never did drugs. Drugs didn't make those people
successful...they already had the skills, abilities, and ambition to be successful. There was simply something in their life that
turned them to some sort of addiction.

Anyway...that's my piece. I really don't understand the attack on someone for saying they've never done drugs. There's a lot of
people out there who can say that...for many different reasons.

[Goblin-King]

A couple of observations:

1. Sjeng's original quote from the blog is being blown waaaaaaaay out of proportion. He wasn't "braggy" or in your face.

2. The accomplishment as far as I'm concerned is in resisting peer pressure, temptation, curiosity, lust - especially while young and susceptible. That is not entirely without value. Does he deserve a medal? No. But good for him.

3. I have indeed always wondered why weed is illegal and alcohol and cigarettes aren't. as far as I know they are around the same level of health hazard. While I find that saying weed has no dangers at all is uninformed; at a glance alcohol and cigarettes seems to have way more observable/direct dangers. To be honest I'm not even sure if it should all be legal or all illegal. I actually think we as a whole would be better off without! (fyi: I did try weed in high school on several occasions).

4. I like to have drunk sex while listening to loud music and eating junk food. Isn't that the dream?

5. Regarding Christians: In recent times atheists are actually more annoying than Christians. Just think about it, you know I'm right!

6. I think it's been said already, but I'll repeat it. "Drugs" is a worthless word because it covers too much. Medicine, weed and heroin are not the same things! It tend to make these kind of debates muddy.

7. I think the philosophy that you have to "have tried it" to have valuable opinions is a little "eeeh!". You don't have to be interested in soccer to know that hooliganism is a problem and a bad thing. You don't have to have drunk alcohol, eaten fat foods or taken drugs to know they pose a danger to your body. But there's a fine line between having a valuable opinion and going into the details about things you don't know anything about.

8. From the sound of it (and maybe I'm misreading here) some of you are implying hard drugs should in principle be legal because they are not harmful if you do it in moderation (Just like beer!). Please be reminded that alcohol-smoking-fat related deaths are so much higher than drug related deaths because those are legal and readily available everywhere.

9. Stephen King doesn't recall having ever written "Cujo".

[knightkrawler]

Crystal Meth should be illegal at death sentence for cooks.
Hooliganism is a side effect of football and other given situations among a crowd of stupid people. In my football talks, hooligans are not a topic. Not even a hint. Know why? Because I have no freakin' clue about why someone should want to bash another person's head in for the fun of it.
The sale of cigarettes should be illegalized. It won't. We all know why. Because the industry is powerful way out of proportion to anyone else.
Driving under the influence of alcohol should be sentenced with a month of prison. I'm talking 0.0.
Glutamate should be illegal.

If these are my point of views (clearly CON drugs, right?), then how CON are Sjeng's?
Again, the new title of this thread is, shall we say, a little blunt, cause there has not been a single post or even sentence advocating drugs for other people.

4. I like to have drunk sex while listening to loud music and eating junk food. Isn't that the dream?

It is. AND IT IS DAMAGING and should obviously be illegal, because harmful things (all of them, too) are illegal.

The only real issue in this thread is the double standard of defining
I'm proud of avoiding stuff that has been made illegal because I choose to believe that what is illegal is harmful and vice versa.

You know everything about growth hormones in chicken meat? Take responsibility, and don't buy it or eat it.
You know and yet choose to overlook and eat it anyway? No problem, it's not illegal, although it might be harmful. And yet you pat yourself on the back for avoiding weed.

In all fairness, this last example doesn't even concern Sjeng anymore, cause I really don't know his background and what he avoids and out of what reason.
It IS blown out of proportion and maybe it's become personal, but the POV I just now presented makes me sick and I hate to think that it's Sjeng's.

[torilen]

goblin king - I want to see the proof of that...SK doesn't recall writing cujo? That is hilarious.

[Goblin-King]

goblin king - I want to see the proof of that...SK doesn't recall writing cujo? That is hilarious.

http://www.omgfacts.com/Celebs/Stephen-King-was-so-drunk-and-drugged-he/46618

4. I like to have drunk sex while listening to loud music and eating junk food. Isn't that the dream?

It is. AND IT IS DAMAGING and should obviously be illegal, because harmful things (all of them, too) are illegal.

Illegalizing sex! Congratulations, you just killed off the human race!

[knightkrawler]

Isn't that a good thing? I'm confused.

[Thantos]

4. I like to have drunk sex while listening to loud music and eating junk food. Isn't that the dream?

All at the same time? You have a very tolerant wife My girlfriend would draw the line if i pulled out a KFC family bucket!

People who are in absolutely no position to criticize something because they've never experienced it, but do so anyway frustrates me no end.

Presumption is incorrect.

I do have a very personal reason for disliking drugs, due to how they effected a person who was close to me. I dont care if other people wish to take drugs, or how anyone may argue drugs dont do any damage, will increase intelligence, turn you into a famous rockstar - whatever you like. Because I have seen otherwise, first hand, and I will never again let a person i love be slowly destroyed by a drug abusing addiction until there is nothing left of the person you once knew

I have nothing to add, id just be repeating myself. I log in here to check cool HQ updates, not have my core beliefs questioned.