The Great Lich Debate (and necromancers, too)

[torilen]

Okay - so, throughout several different threads now, there has been various talks about Liches.
I wanted to start a thread devoted just to that, to get everyone'sewpoint on the Lich.
My point of view:
typically, they are evil and want all power for themselves, and becoming a lich typically requires some
sort of great sacrifice, usually involving blood and flesh and perhaps the soul of a friend or something.
MY THOUGHTS ARE - to become a lich, it usually requires a character to serve some higher being (if
there are any in the game world), and they are the ones who require the sacrifice, and require the lich
to serve them for the immortality they gain.
However, I do believe liches can be good sometimes. They can make a sacrifice of animals or something,
and can serve a good higher being, who wants the lich to serve them for a long time to spread the word
of their goodness.

On a side note - it usually takes a wizard or necromancer of great power to become a lich. I also don't believe
that necromancers have to be evil, and they're not necessarily all nasty and gross. It is typical, yes, but sometimes
a necromancer could simply have power over the undead and death only because his good higher being wants the
necromancer to be able to control the undead spirits of evil, so as to protect the good.

Those are my thoughts. All others are welcome.

[el_flesh]

It all depends upon how pseudo-religious you want to be.

If you don't care at all, then any magician can work his magic simply by knowing secrets others do not. Or having some special talent or organ that lets him tap into other dimensions and energies that others cannot. I kind of like this way, as it depends on no unseen gods at all.

If you want to go heavier on the gods path, then any magic user will indeed have to appeal to some higher being of some sort to work the impossible. While any good scientist will realize this merely adds a step to the same problem of "where does the fantastical energy for these feats come from?" We can engage in a little escapism and put our bullshit detectors on hold - its harmless to science as this is a game and is not taken seriously at all. (In contrast to religion, like mitchianity, for example.)
Watch "Excalibur" and you'll get what I mean - Merlin tells Morgana LeFey to "Look into the eyes of the DRAGON." The world rests on the back of the dragon, etc.
Diablo2 used this idea in Trang-Oul for the Necromancer. Probably got it straight off of the Excalibur movie anyway.

For me, a necromancer has had to spend loads of time among dead bodies and in crypts and other places most people will shun; therefore they will pretty much shun him. He is a loner by nature, probably distrustful of others at best; preferring people dead instead of alive at worst.
He wouldn't help anyone who needed it at best; and would actively kill someone who instead needed his help at worst.
If he should help anyone I am sure it would simply be the means to achieve his own ends. If he's spent so much of his life away from normal people, away from normal compassion then he would have none. If he spends so much time learning of man's ultimate fate - worm food - he really wouldn't attach much value to those who still aren't dead yet. Indeed, he probably sees every living person as already dead; they simply haven't stopped walking yet.

To become a Lich requires intense study no matter what paradigm your Necromancer is under. J.K.Rowling made it the murder of others to ensure it. Vader did, too, and that was just to get on the dark side, never mind as Sidious called it "...discover the secret"

It would take the most driven of Necromancers to become a Lich. It might even be those who didn't learn as much about what comes after death - since the particular knowledge of a Necromancer should make him fearless of the prospect of death.

I play my necromancers as one who serves nobody and nothing - unless it furthers my aims; then I will pretend to serve them. For a time. Ultimately I would serve myself, obtaining more and greater power. I would simply choose a slightly different path than Zarquon - since his path paints a large target on his back.

[mo123813]

Sorry, but Liches are not good.
Necromancers, yes. But liches devote their life to the studies and practices of death, and kill themselves to truly experience it. They are so selfish it's sad, and have no emotion what so ever. It would make no sense for them to fight for good, or evil. Liches are loners.

[el_flesh]

Now we got even 2 different ideas of what type of immortality a Lich is:

1) being a revenant according to mo123813; this idea I have never heard in connection with Lich
2) never having died because that is what they most want to avoid! They want immortality on this earth; so they do something very difficult to obtain it.
Their body appears undead because time should have taken it long ago, but was thwarted by 'magic'. Only their body is in death (albeit animated still); but their minds aren't.

[torilen]

Well, I was under the impression that liches were dead, as well. I've always assumed that the rite
to become a lich did, in effect, kill the creature trying to become the lich. The magic involved (or the
power of the divine being involved, if any) keeps the mind alive and keeps the body from falling apart.
In some cases, I suppose, after a really long time, the magic fails enough to let the body fail, but keep
the body and spirit together, and you have a bodyless lich at that point.

[el_flesh]

erm... I never heard that either.

No. For me it's basically the same as voldemort, vader, thulsa doom...
Using your power to triumph over death; where death doesn't ever even touch you. Your body finally rots away due to ancient age, but your mind stays the same, and your skeleton; eventually all that is left of your body, is animated and moved by magics. If you play under the premise of a 'soul', then your 'soul' must be hidden away somewhere in a vessel for safekeeping, and only opening/destroying the vessel can destroy your soul and kill your Lich body for good.

Or else your body is immediately converted into a dead skeleton the moment you become a Lich...

Hey, for immortality with my mind intact, I'd gladly make my body become just an animated skeleton! That means giving up sex and booze. Sheesh would immortality be worth that??

[mo123813]

When the necromancer is ready to give themselves to death, they kill themselves, and their spirit is sucked into a (I forgot the name...) making them immortal, until the (I forgot the name...) is destroyed.

[torilen]

the name of the thing - a phylactery - something like that
and yes - that's what I've always understood it to be - their soul/spirit/life force, whatever you call it,
is sucked into that when they become a lich

and - el flesh - no, wouldn't be worth it for that price. hehehe

[el_flesh]

Not that it's important at all - everyone is entitled to play their LICH as they see fit - why not add a voting bar that sees what each of our take is on it?

MY Necro will never die...since giving yourself over to death is dying itself! But hey; there's been more than one interpretation given centuries ago...

Does HQ itself have anything to say on the matter? Like in the wizards pack or whatever?

[drathe]

Liches exist in HQ only through house rules. So everyone is free to play them as their Game Masters see fit. However, it's always great to hear what others do, as to gain ideas for those who are yet to introduce them into their games, or for those who aren't already dead set on they way they play them.