Line of Sight

[CavemanLogic]

Cheers.

I'm not talking out the ambiguity of the rules themselves like what's in your LoS, just whether or not the sight rule for spells is something that varies at all between the different versions.

If you are asking about the different versions of the base game rulebooks, and their requirements for spellcasting, here's a quick breakdown:

UK 1989 1st Edition: "Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Models in the same room as the spell-caster are always visible. Models in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line from the spell-caster to the target. If the line passes through another model, through a wall, or through a closed door, then the target model is not visible."

UK 1990 2nd Edition: "Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible."

US 1990 1st Edition:
" "SEE"
For the Elf or Wizard to cast a spell, the target must be visible. Heroes and monsters are only visible if an unobstructed straight line can be traced from the spellcaster to the target.

A Good Rule of Thumb: Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on and the center of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, Hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge. The
following diagram shows an example of what is visible."

US 2021 2nd Edition: (already posted above, but for completeness, reposted here)...
"See (Line of Sight)
For a hero to cast a spell, the target must be visible. Heroes and monsters are only visible if an unobstructed straight line can be traced from the spellcaster to the target.

A Good Rule of Thumb: Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on and the center of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, hero, or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge. The following diagram shows an example of what is visible."



The earlier UK editions were more lax on the rules for spellcasting. The newer US rules, including the *current* ruleset from the reprint, specifically require LoS to your target when casting spells.

I believe that *all* spells require LoS to your target, as specified in the rulebook, *unless* the spell card overrides that in the text on the card itself. Take the Genie spell, for instance. One of it's effects specifically *does not* require LoS, while the other effect does. It allows you to "open any door on the board (revealing what lies beyond)" which does *not* require LoS to the target door. Or it allows you to "use 5 combat dice to attack any monster within your line of sight" which *does* require LoS to your target Monster.

The skulls of doom spell threw me off because it specifically mentions 'line of sight' which would make sense because it's a projectile thrown from the caster, making me think there's a rule set using sight as including any target in the same room or corridor.

I don't have the new Wizards of Morcar expansion yet (have to wait until it's general release next month to buy it), so I don't know if there were any changes to that spell. I only have the original spells to go off of (the ones you can view and download here on Ye Olde Inn, with copyright dates of 1989, 1990). The Skulls of Doom is a Necromancer Spell from Wizards of Morcar. It's card text says "This spell allows a Sorcerer to hurl a magical skull at any figure in their line of sight. The skull explodes like a fireball and attacks the figure with 2 Combat Dice, which the figure may defend against normally."

I don't see any indication on that spell that it *would not* follow the rulebook's LoS rules for casting spells. In essence, it functions exactly the same as a Crossbow bolt, but is single use and only attacks with two dice instead of the Crossbow's three dice. If *anything* blocks LoS between you and your target (Wall, Closed Door, Hero, Monster, etc), then you can't target them. In fact it appears that all six of the Necromancer spells must follow the base game rulebook's LoS rules for casting spells...

Call Skeleton: Summons Skeletons within LoS of the caster.
Death Bolt: "Hurl this spell at one figure in sight." So, must be within LoS.
Fear: The spell text only mentions "the target." It does not mention that it can target anyone outside the caster's LoS, so you must follow the rules for casting spells (which, again, requires LoS).
Raise the Dead: Again, doesn't mention that you can override the LoS rules, so you can only cast it on a target within LoS.
Skulls of Doom: Discussed above. Requires LoS.
Summon Mummy: Summons a Mummy into a square adjacent to the Sorcerer. Requires LoS.

The elf spells as well. Deep Sleep: LoS. Hypnotic Blaze/Time Stop/Disappear/Flashback: Any hero the caster chooses. Slow/Twist Wood: Non specific so standard rules, LoS same as Deep Sleep.

The Elf Quest Pack Elf Spells (available on Ye Olde Inn) have a copyright date of 1992. The Mage of the Mirror Elf Spells have a copyright date of 2023. Both are similar, in regards to their LoS requirements.

Deep Sleep: Specifically mentions LoS.
Disappear: "may be cast on the spellcaster or on any one Hero they choose." This one is a little vague, but it still seems that you need to follow the standard rule of requiring LoS to cast the spell. The "on any one Hero they choose" text doesn't specify that it overrides the basic rule of requiring LoS to your target when casting spells. It would just be weird if you could cast this on another Hero somewhere in a different room across the board from you. I don't think that's the intent. I believe it would still require LoS to your target.
Double Image: Same as Disappear. Probably requires LoS.
Flashback: Same as Disappear. Probably requires LoS.
Hypnotic Blaze: This one also does not override the LoS rule. The *target* of the spell is the Room or Corridor the spellcaster is in (which is obviously within their LoS). The spell *affects* everyone within the same Room/Corridor. But who the spell affects is necessarily different than the spell's target (which still requires LoS).
Slow: Same as Disappear. Probably requires LoS.
Timestop: Same as Disappear. Probably requires LoS.
Twist Wood: Same as Disappear. Probably requires LoS.

I know there are some that believe spellcasters already have a hard time in the game, and will *houserule* that they can use the broader FoV when casting spells, rather than the rulebook's stated rule of requiring LoS. But that is a houserule, not the *actual* rule.

Cheers!

[Gold Bearer]

If you are asking about the different versions of the base game rulebooks, and their requirements for spellcasting, here's a quick breakdown:

UK 1989 1st Edition:...

Yea basically both rulesets use 'in sight' as in LoS or in the same room, and it's only the USian version that uses LoS only for spells.

I don't have the new Wizards of Morcar expansion yet (have to wait until it's general release next month to buy it), so I don't know if there were any changes to that spell. I only have the original spells to go off of (the ones you can view and download here on Ye Olde Inn, with copyright dates of 1989, 1990). The Skulls of Doom is a Necromancer Spell from Wizards of Morcar. It's card text says "This spell allows a Sorcerer to hurl a magical skull at any figure in their line of sight. The skull explodes like a fireball and attacks the figure with 2 Combat Dice, which the figure may defend against normally."

I don't see any indication on that spell that it *would not* follow the rulebook's LoS rules for casting spells. In essence, it functions exactly the same as a Crossbow bolt, but is single use and only attacks with two dice instead of the Crossbow's three dice. If *anything* blocks LoS between you and your target (Wall, Closed Door, Hero, Monster, etc), then you can't target them.

No the skulls of doom spell specifically states that you need LoS so it overrules the standard spell sight rules, just like genie (including its attack option), fire of wrath (unlike the 'Slight Embers of Very Mild Irritation' version) and spirit on vengeance but in this case making it inferior by limiting rather than expanding its range.

In fact it appears that all six of the Necromancer spells must follow the base game rulebook's LoS rules for casting spells...

Call Skeleton: Summons Skeletons within LoS of the caster.
Death Bolt: "Hurl this spell at one figure in sight." So, must be within LoS.
Fear: The spell text only mentions "the target." It does not mention that it can target anyone outside the caster's LoS, so you must follow the rules for casting spells (which, again, requires LoS).
Raise the Dead: Again, doesn't mention that you can override the LoS rules, so you can only cast it on a target within LoS.
Skulls of Doom: Discussed above. Requires LoS.
Summon Mummy: Summons a Mummy into a square adjacent to the Sorcerer. Requires LoS.

No. Call Skeleton, Death Bolt, Fear and Raise the Dead do NOT require LoS. They don't mention LoS so can also be cast on any target in same room.

I know there are some that believe spellcasters already have a hard time in the game, and will *houserule* that they can use the broader FoV when casting spells, rather than the rulebook's stated rule of requiring LoS. But that is a houserule, not the *actual* rule.

Of course it isn't, it's the *actual* rule. If anything the USian version requiring LoS is the (inferior) house rule because it turned up late, wasn't as good and didn't even really make sense.

[CavemanLogic]

Yea basically both rulesets use 'in sight' as in LoS or in the same room, and it's only the USian version that uses LoS only for spells.

So, yes, the *current* rules (2021), and also the US 1st Edition (1990), require *direct* LoS for casting spells.

No the skulls of doom spell specifically states that you need LoS so it overrules the standard spell sight rules, just like genie (including its attack option), fire of wrath (unlike the 'Slight Embers of Very Mild Irritation' version) and spirit on vengeance but in this case making it inferior by limiting rather than expanding its range.

Skulls of Doom does *not* overrule the Standard Spell rules. Both the Standard Spell rules, and the Skulls of Doom spell card, state that you need *direct* LoS to cast the spell.

No. Call Skeleton, Death Bolt, Fear and Raise the Dead do NOT require LoS. They don't mention LoS so can also be cast on any target in same room.

You are right that they do *not* mention LoS, so that means you default to the Standard Spell rules of requiring *direct* LoS to cast a spell on a target. So, yes, those spells *do* require LoS.

Of course it isn't, it's the *actual* rule. If anything the USian version requiring LoS is the (inferior) house rule because it turned up late, wasn't as good and didn't even really make sense.

Disagree. The US rules were a 2nd generation of the too basic EU rules. The US rules fixed a great many things wrong with the original EU rules (such as all single BP Monsters, Heroes being able to block other Hero's movement, not being able to retrace your steps during a single move... and the Standard Spell rules.

I believe our differing points of view, at this point, are due to the ruleset that each of us is using. It appears you are using the original EU rules for spellcasting (where a Hero can target *any* miniature within the same room), whereas I am using the current 2021 reprint rules for spellcasting.

So, yes, I believe we are *both* right regarding our points of view, based on the rules version we use.

Cheers!

[Gold Bearer]

No the skulls of doom spell specifically states that you need LoS so it overrules the standard spell sight rules, just like genie (including its attack option), fire of wrath (unlike the 'Slight Embers of Very Mild Irritation' version) and spirit on vengeance but in this case making it inferior by limiting rather than expanding its range.

Skulls of Doom does *not* overrule the Standard Spell rules. Both the Standard Spell rules, and the Skulls of Doom spell card, state that you need *direct* LoS to cast the spell.

Yes it does! It's a spell from Wizards of Morcar, both versions in the region Wizards of Morcar allow spells to be cast on any target in the same room. This spell overrules that in the same way as genie, fire of wrath and spirit of vengeance except that it restricts potential targets to LoS instead of anywhere.

No. Call Skeleton, Death Bolt, Fear and Raise the Dead do NOT require LoS. They don't mention LoS so can also be cast on any target in same room.

You are right that they do *not* mention LoS, so that means you default to the Standard Spell rules of requiring *direct* LoS to cast a spell on a target. So, yes, those spells *do* require LoS.

The default standard spell sight rules allow casting anywhere in the same room in the region that these spells are from.

Of course it isn't, it's the *actual* rule. If anything the USian version requiring LoS is the (inferior) house rule because it turned up late, wasn't as good and didn't even really make sense.

Disagree. The US rules were a 2nd generation of the too basic EU rules. The US rules fixed a great many things wrong with the original EU rules (such as all single BP Monsters, Heroes being able to block other Hero's movement, not being able to retrace your steps during a single move... and the Standard Spell rules.

No it' a typical USian dumbing down. Both versions contain stupid rules, the worst in each I think is being able to disarm any traps in LoS and being able to use healing when you die. Restricting spell targets to LoS as if they were physical projectiles is also really silly.

I believe our differing points of view, at this point, are due to the ruleset that each of us is using. It appears you are using the original EU rules for spellcasting (where a Hero can target *any* miniature within the same room), whereas I am using the current 2021 reprint rules for spellcasting.

So, yes, I believe we are *both* right regarding our points of view, based on the rules version we use.

But you're trying to apply USian rules to European content, that never works.

[BlackJax]

I think that there is a persistent misunderstanding (possibly by me) about the rules in this area. I think the way that the designers actually intended this aspect to be played was lost in translation when the 1st edition rules were written. When they saw players playing the game based on the players understanding of the rules as written, the designers realised that that something had been lost in translation so they had another attempt which was included in the 2nd edition, which did a better job of conveying the original intent but was still a little confusing. I also think (and could be wrong) that the NA edition was based on the 1st edition so may not have included all the changes that were made between the 1st and 2nd edition (for better or for worse!)

What can be seen?
Deciding what can be seen by a player character is very important in determining what should be placed onto the board. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible.

1. "Deciding what can be seen by a player character is very important in determining what should be placed onto the board." = You place on the board that which can be seen by a hero

2. "Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible. = this is the line-of-sight rule that determines what you can see / is visible / is in sight.

X. "Miniatures in the same room are always visible." - this is correct, in the sense that you can place two miniatures on any two squares anywhere on an empty board in the same room and they will have always have line-of-sight to each other, however once you layer in the later rules around Blocked Squares then this is no longer always correct so should be ignored.

Blocked Squares
These tiles should be placed according to the map in the Quest Book as soon as they become visible to a character player. These tiles show where extra walls have been built, or where the ceiling has fallen in. Neither characters or monsters may move through blocked squares.

Up until this rule is considered all walls (and closed doors because they occupy the same space as a wall) run around the outside of rooms so they never block line-of-sight for miniatures in the same room as each other, but once this rule is considered then Blocked Square tiles, and the extra walls they represent, could be placed inside a room and would potentially block line-of-sight between two miniatures in the same room.

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

If you compare this quote from the casting a spell section with the line-of-sight rule from the earlier "what can be seen" section then you can clearly see that they are the same apart from one difference, the "or another miniature" clause.

Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible.

What this means to me, considering the points made above around line-of-sight, is that

3. "Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster." = and you can determine whether they are visible using the line-of-sight rule (2)

4. If the line-of-sight passes through another miniature then the spell cannot be cast at that target

The earlier UK editions were more lax on the rules for spellcasting. The newer US rules, including the *current* ruleset from the reprint, specifically require LoS to your target when casting spells.

I would say that both the 1st and 2nd edition are clear that "Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster." and both use exactly the same line-of-sight [LoS] rules for what you can target with a spell. It is true that the 2nd edition amends the line-of-sight rule used to determine what you can see to ignore other miniatures but it keeps the line-of-sight [LoS] rule that determines what you can target with a spell exactly the the same as the 1st edition, so I don't understand this comment around the newer rules needing line-of-sight, but the earlier rules not needing line-of-sight for spell casting.

I'm not talking out the ambiguity of the rules themselves like what's in your LoS, just whether or not the sight rule for spells is something that varies at all between the different versions.

I think in all rulesets spells require line-of-sight to be cast (unless a specific spell card text overrides the general rule)

[Gold Bearer]

Nope.

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

Anyone in the same room can be targeted by a spell other than the projectile spells (Arrows of the Night and Skulls of Doom) and the Orc Shaman spells (presumably a greenskin thing) that specifically state that they need Line of Sight.

[BlackJax]

I understand but I think we are approaching this from a different perspective.

If I purchase a product that needs assembly, for example a retro toy bolt thrower that fires a matchstick at a target, and I follow the assembly instructions to the letter, but my product doesn’t work as expected, I might double check that I have followed the instructions to the letter and verify that the components are sound and then do some research into other users experience. If I find that users experience is that the product design is great, the components are good quality but that some users feel that the assembly instructions are misleading in places, then I might use the knowledge I have gained from the assembly instructions, my attempts to use the product and my research and modify the assembly so that I end up with a product that works well.

To be clear I’m not talking about applying house rules in the sense of modifying the instructions to create a product that is better than the original design, I’m talking about modifying the instructions to end up with a product that reflects the original design.

I’ve only recently discovered Against the Ogre Horde and Wizards of Morcar but having read through these a couple of times they seem strange to me. Others have commented that they don’t appear to have been play tested thoroughly which may well be the case, but I mean strange in the sense that I get the impression they were written by a different design team than the original, and the team that wrote them appear to be unaware of many of the conventions in place in the original game.

Some of these breaks with convention don’t really matter, like using the term corridor instead of passage, others need some tweaks applying, like placing monsters on the Quest Map directly behind a door, or like having traps without counters that don’t automatically get rendered harmless by a search, but some need a lot more thinking about.

Your example of the Arrows of the Night spell from Wizards of Morcar, is a perfect example of where the original conventions are ignored and this leads to confusion. Some of the Wizards of Morcar spells, including this one, specify “any target within your line of sight” on the spell card itself instead of following the convention on the original spell cards of leaving the general rules of play to cover the situation, which I’ve summarised below.

1. Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster.

2. Miniatures in the same room are always visible.

3a. (line-of-sight) Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible.

3b. (line-of-sight for missiles) Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

This results in a situation where the specific card text should take precedent over the general rules of play, resulting in you needing line-of-sight when targeting a miniature in a passage or a different room than the one you are in (which matches 3b in the above general rules of play so all good) but also suggests that you need line-of-sight even against targets in the same room, overruling the general rules of play. However, there is no line-of-sight rule for targeting miniatures in the same room in the general rules of play booklet, nor on this spell card nor within the Wizards of Morcar expansion booklet!

If you assume, as I think you have, that the line-of-sight rule for rooms is something like below (which doesn’t appear in the rulebook) then you have a problem.
“Miniatures in the same room are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.”

My Wizard would be unable to target a miniature in the same room with the Arrows of the Night spell, for example an Orc equipped with a crossbow, four squares away from the Wizard along the same horizontal line, if a Fimir was placed on the same horizontal line, between the two miniatures (because the line passes through the Fimir miniature) but the Orc could still target the Wizard with his crossbow from the same position as the crossbow uses the original rule 2. “Miniatures in the same room are always visible.”

For me this situation is clearly not how the game was designed to be played so the instructions are not valid, so need to be amended (for example as below).
I suppose what I’m trying to say in a very long-winded and round about way is that you can interpret the inclusion of this text in some of the Wizards of Morcar spells as either

a) A specific instruction for those particular spells.
b) An intention by the person that wrote it to change the way that seeing & line-of-sight works in the game as a whole or a reflection of the fact that he or she thought it already worked that way.

And (b) results in a better "product".

Line-of-sight Rule (for seeing and placing on the board)
“Miniatures are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible.”

Line-of-fire Rule (line-of-sight for targeting with missile attacks and spells)
“Miniatures are only able to be targeted if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature cannot be targeted.”

[Gold Bearer]

What? No! The rules couldn't be more clear.

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

The spells themselves obviously take priority. Some spells affect an area like a whole room, Fire of Wrath, Genie and Spirit of Vengeance can be cast on a target anywhere, other orc shaman spells, Arrows of the Night and Skulls of Doom are Line of Sight, because those two are magical projectile attacks.
Wtf is all the confusion?

[Onan]

Wtf is all the confusion?

For eample that neither 1st nor 2nd edition uses the term "line of sight" in the rules, except for in the infamous diagram (which I think was created by someone else than the writer of the rules and doesn't reflect the written rules). Now there is an expansion that uses a term for spell casting that is not even defined in the rules.

BlackJax, I also think these 2 expansions were created by different people than the base game. And when trying to reconstruct the meaning of the original rules, you shouldn't take them into account.

[Gold Bearer]

Wtf is all the confusion?

For eample that neither 1st nor 2nd edition uses the term "line of sight" in the rules, except for in the infamous diagram (which I think was created by someone else than the writer of the rules and doesn't reflect the written rules). Now there is an expansion that uses a term for spell casting that is not even defined in the rules.

Huh?

Casting a Spell
Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. MINIATURES IN THE SAME ROOM ARE ALWAYS VISIBLE. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

The Line of Sight rule is right there! For when the target isn't in the same room.