THE SPIRIT QUEEN'S TORMENT discussion

[manaknight14]

The orc spirits are located in a flooded temple which was apparently visited by the Spirit Queen during the events of the quest pack. The moray eel might have been living there?

[Vorimir]

Thinking about how radomly lame this Quest pack is you are probably right. XD

[Daedalus]

AI may be the culprit. My daughter has been showing me some of the faults, and I see a few. For Instance, why is the pinky finger hidden completely on her right hand? Kind of an odd artistic choice--like including a eel. Might be the same hack behind this piece as the proto-First Light box cover that got folks up in arms.

[Kurgan]

AI may be the culprit. My daughter has been showing me some of the faults, and I see a few. For Instance, why is the pinky finger hidden completely on her right hand? Kind of an odd artistic choice--like including a eel. Might be the same hack behind this piece as the proto-First Light box cover that got folks up in arms.

Was Hasbro using A.I. generated art back in 2020 (WOTC got caught using it infamously in 2023)? I know ChatGPT was released two years later, and I suppose companies probably had access to this stuff earlier, but just wondering how plausible that is.

If you mean Clark Mitchell (who was hired to do the first, infamously panned cover for "First Light"), I'd love to see some evidence that he's done any other HeroQuest work besides that... I guess I never stopped to ask who designed those Mythic covers. (Max Dunbar is credited with the art for Crypt of Perpetual Darkness including the dragon sculpt, that Joe Manganiello worked with to come up with the design).

Nikki Dawes did at least some of the art for the new hero characters but not sure the exact extent.

Certainly Mitchell used art from PoT (and the Max Dunbar cover for the remake Game System) to create his First Light cover (which was thankfully replaced by the one we see now from YellowFly). He's worked for Hasbro before on many games (and people have detected "A.I. looking" elements in his work before, like the, again I'm going to use the term now, "infamous" Monopoly Villainous cover with Cruella DeVille's extra finger(s). A.I. user or slap-dash photoshopper, whatever the case may be, yeah his work isn't the greatest, but I bet he works fast & cheap!

Avalon Hill has stated (like WOTC) that their stated policy is not to use A.I. in any released commercial product, but there you go. Again, I'd give the benefit of the doubt until it can be shown that its most likely a cheat, rather than just it could be better or "I don't like it."

[Daedalus]

2014:
GANs were introduced, marking a major advancement in AI art generation due to their ability to produce realistic and diverse outputs.

Artists started experimenting with GANs around 2017: Following the development of GANs, artists began to incorporate them into their creative processes around 2017.

This isn't text based, but professional artists certainly would know about it, so any hire from Avalon Hill potentially could have had it in their toolbox.

I'll check with my daughter in a few days to confirm my suspicions. It's not evidence, but I trust her experience with "faked" images as a member of online artistic communities and would stand by her ability to discriminate the AI process in an art piece.

Even with her confirmation, I have no way of confirming the SQT's cover art as a Clark Mitchell "original." I guess the Disney Ursula minion put me on that kick. It's certainly possible some other artist is involved, just as it's possible everything was done without AI assistance. With so many small inconsistencies at this point, I currently remain skeptical, however. But admittedly, I'm a noob at this game.

[Parzival]

Plenty of pre-AI classic fantasy artists made mistakes in their works (TSR’s Caldwell was consistently bad, but as was rightly pointed out the goal is “fast and cheap” not “create a masterpiece for the ages.”)
Too bad we lost Tramp. Every fantasy illustrator should have to do intensive study of his work before picking up so much as a crayon. The message isn’t to copy, it’s to Be Original.
But cover art is for a commercial purpose, not hanging on the wall. When it can be both is amazing. But also very, very rare.

[Kurgan]

I also wouldn't trust an AI answer on this question, it has to be sourced from human generated sources to draw from, so I'd like to see THOSE sources to evaluate. I get the general idea that A.I. existed in those days, the question is where's the evidence they used it? Knowing it existed back then in the industry is important yes, but the next step is seeing if there are signs they did use it in SQT cover.... that's a big deal.

Basically what we're accusing them of is dishonesty, a form of fraud (even if legal; it would still involve deception, lying... since they claim NOT to use that stuff in final products, it would be a violation of their own policies and statements to the public). I'm all for being suspicious and skeptical of big corporations, but we should bring the receipts... and I say this as someone who has believed certain "facts" which turned out to be conspiracy nonsense.

So if it IS A.I., then the question is, did they know about it and approve it, or not know about it and it passed because nobody said anything?

Even at this late stage I'd say it's not "too late" to raise a fuss, because SQT (and PoT) seem to be running out of stock and ready for a new print run. They could change the cover like they did for First Light, if enough people voice their displeasure and send that direct to Hasbro Consumer Care (email on their site) and draw attention to it on social media.

But let's "prove" our case first... looking forwarding to seeing that evidence!

[Daedalus]

I'd assume that Avalon Hill didn't recognize what exact process created the art they commissioned, but that doesn't mean they had forbid its use in advance. They only showed concern when their market reacted negatively. Most likely they simply asked for art, got it, and passed it on--no questions asked. It's easy for them to deny any knowing use of AI as long as this default is left in place. It seems to me that it's simply public-relations damage control in practice, and I'd expect such a response where money is involved.

Personally, I don't expect that Avalon Hill should change any of their previously released art for their products. I'd only expect them to try better in the future to maintain originally created art, as this would align with their stated position. As a community member, I feel comfortable voicing my opinion if I feel I can support it, however. Such negative criticism can have a positive effect if it reveals weaknesses to be avoided in the future.

[Parzival]

I’ve looked at the SQT cover art and I really don’ think it’s AI at all. Yes, a pinky appears to be missing, but the angle and gesture of the hand and fingers is such that it’s perfectly reasonable to assume the artist decided the pinky would not be visible to the viewer. It could also be that this piece was not originally created for the product at all, but sold to AH to use, with the “Orc Spirits” added later— with the process of adding these accidentally covering up or obscuring the missing pinky. It would also explain the eel— this is a work done for something else, modified for SQT in exchange for a decent payment.

“A grand* for a painting I’ve already done, and I just have to add some wispy “spirit” swirling around? SOLD!”

*I have no idea what the going rate is for a commercial artist for something like this. I could be way over or way under. The point is, the artist can take payment for a work already done and only spend a couple of hours adding some product-specifici flavor.)

So I think this is real, human-produced art. I just think it wasn’t meant for the pack, but was close enough for the Mythic Tier inclusion. “Have I got a creepy-elf-witch-queen painting? Dude, take your pick!” “Looks great. Slap some spirits on it and we’lll take it.”
Or they hadn’t finalized the quest and just told the artist it was about an undead elf sorceress who dwells in a flooded temple, and we get this underwater Goth negligee ad as a result.

[Kurgan]

Not to make excuses but repurposed and modified art is kind of HeroQuest tradition (some of the art, especially in 1st edition HQ is borrowed directly from Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd edition core book).

You can review the interview from 2024's GenCon (on my youtube channel) where he talks about A.I. being restricted from use in released products (and he stopped short of acknowledging that Clark Mitchell had used A.I. in the First Light cover, if you notice, only that fans had rejected it). Was he talking only about Avalon Hill or all of Hasbro? Because previously WOTC had gotten in trouble with the public for being caught using A.I. in their released products after they had claimed they did not allow this.