Line of Sight and Furniture discussion

[StratosVX]

Hi all,

I want to break down whether the elf can cast a spell targeting the barbarian.


There are three (!) points that needs to be addressed to figure this out:

1. Does furniture block LoS at all?
   - I'd argue "yes" since the topic about LoS on Page 14 has the "rule of thumb"-headline and apparently it's covered regarding cabinets Prophecy of Telor
   
   
   
2. Does furniture only block LoS on the visible outline of the 3D print or of the whole tile it's standing on?
   - I'm not sure about this, though this illustration on page 14 suggests it's not the whole tile but rather the 3d printed piece outline. I see no reason for furniture to work different from characters in this regard.
   
   
3. Do two different pieces of furniture on diagonally adjacent tiles block the diagonal space between them?
   - I'd say no because of the example on Pg. 14. Again no reason to differentiate between characters and furniture in my opinion
   

So in conclusion, I'd allow the spellcasting in the first image, while I'm not sure about the 3D Print Outline Point No. 2, the third points seems rather clear to me.

What are your thoughts on these three points?

[Kurgan]

In the NA/Remake rules: I would allow the spell target between the furniture. I guess some would treat all furniture as if it were an infinitely tall solid opaque block of indestructible material. "But I want to jump up on the table" often comes up (I homebrew "uncommon feats" to provide special exceptions to this previous assumption).

The companion app (which is not infallible) allows anyone to move through a treasure chest (even without toggling on the "intangible furniture"). Many would agree a treasure chest is something you can fire over without penalty, if you can at all. Some would count tables with that as well (though you could also say maybe your target ducks behind the table and the attack misses more easily!).

I think it's clear you know the other figures are there, regardless of the furniture in the room (only "magical darkness" or other quest specific quirks would alter that). But even so I think shooting past two objects as in the diagonal isn't a problem. Spells can hit adjacent, orthogonal adjacent and ranged targets. A closed door or other obstructing figure in the way could stop the spell from hitting the target beyond, but in rarer situations it seems a little absurd that a monster on the other side of a bookcase could be hit (maybe the magic blasts through?).
Should magic be able to hit places where conventional weapons could not? Generally I would say no. A spell can hit where a longsword can hit as well as where a crossbow could hit.

[Daedalus]

I'd say there is another point to address.

4. Does the particular height of a piece of furniture bear on its blocking line of sight?

Most EWP/Zargon players seem to agree that tall furniture blocks line of sight, as supported in Sheytan's Prophecy of Telor example. However, as Kurgan noted, many of those same players rule short furniture like a chest doesn't block line of sight. To account for this, the rule of thumb for LoS can be adapted to to the verticality of the involved furniture and figures.

My solution is to draw an imaginary line from the attacker's shoulder height to the center of the target's height. If it crosses a piece of furniture, the furniture blocks the attack or spell. This would allow the Elf to target the Barbarian in the circled example in the OP, beyond the other reasons already given from a top-down perspective.

[Kurgan]

I have since tested the Companion App v.5.1 (again, not infallible to the rules, and deliberately a bit loose so you can use variant rules easier) and NO furniture* ever blocks LOS for stuff that can be used at range. Doesn't mean you can't implement it as you choose (the App is way off for example, in allowing potions to be cast across rooms and corridors like they are actually spells, and yes, even right through bookcases and cupboards!). The App treats closed doors just like stone blocks (in other words, like walls) but the rest of the furniture is like it's not even there (even with "intangible furniture" toggled off in settings).

HeroQuest FIRST LIGHT did address this question. It explains early on in the rulebook (page 10) that furniture only blocks LOS and/or Movement (!) if Zargon wants it to. It admits (strangely, because see all of the "pass through furniture" options in Jungles of Delthrak) that these things were never defined so you can play it how you want at your table.

* When I say "furniture" here I'm talking about every non-character 3d object placed on the board except the door models, which are singled out in the instructions where "closed" does indeed block line of sight (though apparently the App sometimes forgets this, though I haven't witnessed it first hand).

Here's the precise quote if you're curious (see attached image):

[Bareheaded Warrior]

An interesting topic.

As a player of the original HeroQuest for over three decades I have to say that I don't agree with the official statement given

"In the original HeroQuest, furniture was used for atmosphere - it didn't obstruct movement or line of sight"

Whilst it is true that nowhere in the rulebook does it state that any furniture blocks line of sight, it is also true that in every official published quest* for the original HeroQuest, tall furniture (cupboards, bookcases etc) was always placed against walls, so the scenario in which it could have blocked LOS never arose. So provided that this unwritten constraint was obeyed then no rule was necessary (or provided) however as create your own adventure was a thing right from the start, they probably should have either written that constraint down and shared it with the class, or provided a clarification on what to do if/when the situation arose, but they didn't but I'm not sure that is the same thing as stating that "furniture didn't obstruct line of sight", it is probably more accurate to say that furniture was always placed in such a way that it didn't block LOS.

*This probably needs to be fact-checked as there is always one!

At my table(s) we have always played that the fireplace must be placed against a wall (quest design constraint) and that tall furniture (bookcases & cupboards) DO block LOS.

So I kind of agree with your point Daedalus that the height of a particular furniture type DOES matter, but I feel that your solution is more complex than it needs to be (for a simple game). The "rule of thumb" that I think you are referring to (and if so I agree) is the one demonstrated by the Elf to top left Orc being marked as a clear LOS (and further clarified by the wording "even if the line just touches a wall or corner edge") from which I infer a "rule of thumb" that in the simplistic, abstract world of HQ a LOS is either "clear" or "blocked" and if the target square is at least 50% visible then the LOS is "clear".

I think that bearing mind "figures" represent characters, heroes, monsters that are "animated" potentially in constant movement, horizontally of course but also vertically (ducking, diving, jumping, leaping, crouching etc) then the 50% "rule of thumb" can applied in a simple way...tall furniture (cupboards & bookcases) blocks LOS always, other furniture may block anything from 0%-100% bearing mind a practically infinite variety of scenarios so we just simplify the range from 0-100% to an average of 50% and then apply the rule of thumb...if the target square is at least 50% visible then the LOS is "clear".

I also don't agree that furniture didn't obstruct movement, again it wasn't explicitly stated that furniture does or doesn't obstruct movement, but the fact that the original furniture was all three dimensional models that physically occupied the appropriate squares and that the rules state that you cannot end your movement on an occupied square and that you can only move through an occupied square with the permission of the player controlling the occupying model (and furniture has no controlling player) then the conclusion is that furniture DOES obstruct movement. The whole point of furniture in the game from my point of view (aside from being used for atmosphere) is that it can be used to effectively change the shape of what are otherwise fixed shape rooms which increases the options and variety of the quests.

However there is yet another consideration here, if certain furniture types DO block LOS then how do they block it?
a) as a "figure" (character, hero, monster)
b) as a solid "block" (like a blocked square tile)?
c) based on the visible outline of the actual furniture piece?

I have always rejected (c) as being too complex for the simplistic, binary nature of HQ**, both in the sense of the complexity of working out whether part of the chest, the sword, 1/3 of the head, one and a half-legs, a single boot and some of a cloak does or doesn't constitute 50%+ of a figure (can't be bothered with that in-game) and partly because we already have two methods in the game already (a) and (b) so why introduce a third, don't be greedy just make better use of the two methods already provided!

**And even more so if you start trying to take into account the 3D shape of a 2D printed furniture tile provided in some later cost-cutting expansions

LOS blocking furniture to me more closely resembles a blocked square tile (immobile, inanimate, solid, blocky) which uses method (b) than it does a moving, animated figure which use method (a) so I've always used the appropriate existing method (b).

So in answer to the OP's questions (bearing in mind that I can't see the images)

Q1. Does furniture block LoS at all? Yes, tall furniture (cupboards and bookcases DO block LOS)

Q2. Does furniture only block LoS on the visible outline of the 3D print or of the whole tile it's standing on? Whole square(s) as if it was composed of blocked square tiles. The reason why furniture works differently from characters in this regard is that characters are "animated" and furniture is not.

Q3. Do two different pieces of furniture on diagonally adjacent tiles block the diagonal space between them? If you are talking about blocking for the purposes of movement then yes, if you are talking about blocking in terms of LOS then if two tall furniture pieces that block LOS are positioned in such a way then yes they do. The reason why furniture works differently from characters in this regard is that characters are "animated" and furniture is not.

This third question brings us onto yet another example whether the scenario isn't covered in the rulebook, the two corner conundrum, where the line just touching one corner doesn't block LOS (the example given above around the rule of thumb and only 50% being blocked/visible) but if the line just touches a corner blocking one half of the square and another corner blocking the other half of the square then you would assume that the square is NOT visible...

[Daedalus]

I have always been a proponent of the 50% target-visiblity concept. What I'm not clear on is what you would consider the originating vertical point of view of the attacker, which I believe is needed to draw line of sight (or line of effect, in my case) to the target. Or are you using some other method, such as comparing the furniture and target figure heights side-by-side or simply predefining short (nonblocking) and tall (blocking) furniture like many others? Or something else, perhaps?

[Kurgan]

I recall some specific examples of tall furniture being placed in the middle of rooms (one that instantly comes to mind is in Mage of the Mirror there's a scenario where there's two bookcases or a bookcase in a cupboard in the middle of a room and a Giant Wolf is placed behind one. In the app, you can shoot straight through it with a spell to hit the monster on the other side without moving even if you are both adjacent to the furniture on opposite sides.

In later one-off quests and expansions in the Avalon Hill era, there are definitely situations in which stone blocks are strategically placed in/around double corridors or in rooms to limit LOS (monsters can hide behind the blocks and aren't revealed until the heroes advance to the proper angle to see them). Usually the quest notes draw attention to this fact, but not always (observing the behavior of the HQ Companion App, which again, isn't always right, but provides clues as to the intention of the AH designers especially for their new creations I believe).

Not sure if any such examples appeared in the GS, KK, ROTWL, or ATOH (or WOM). Of course when First Light mentions "the original" HeroQuest, what precisely do they mean? The 2021 edition? 1990 NA edition it uses as a template? Or the 1989 original original? At least when ATOH remake refers to the original version of ATOH there's only one candidate that could refer to. But yeah, double check me on those facts.

I guess using in-universe logic, you could imagine that magical spells can be "heat seeking" or maybe their are being lobbed up into the air (tall enough ceiling?) to land on top of the heads of the characters and the hero is just that darn good at predicting his enemy's movement (or attentive to non-visual cues for the location of his target). Harder to justify that with a thrown dagger or fired crossbow bolt, but maybe there are gaps in the furniture that he was lucky enough to be able to just shoot through... holes in rotten wood, spaces between weapons on the rack, between the bottles on the Alchemists bench, etc. Or you could reason the other way and say that even if there isn't a pure physical barrier, the obstruction to the shooter's vision is enough to throw off his aim so he doesn't even try. Saying he still gets to shoot, but with some kind of handicap, is a neat conceptual compromise... if you're going for realism. Otherwise using furniture for a strategic advantage as a pure obstacle can have its merits too.

Someone who just wanted pure decoration I guess could still say "the Barbarian overturns the bookshelf to fire at the goblin" "the Dread Warrior kicks the throne aside and strikes at the Wizard" I suppose, if Zargon allowed it. You could go the other extreme and make people roll to see if they trip over the boot on the ground, or stumble on the crack in the floor that is clearly depicted on the artwork. Just creative ideas... not intended by the basic rules, of course.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I have always been a proponent of the 50% target-visiblity concept. What I'm not clear on is what you would consider the originating vertical point of view of the attacker, which I believe is needed to draw line of sight (or line of effect, in my case) to the target. Or are you using some other method, such as comparing the furniture and target figure heights side-by-side or simply predefining short (nonblocking) and tall (blocking) furniture like many others? Or something else, perhaps?

For me because HQ has a principle of simplicity, sometimes it is more appropriate to approximate or to increase the level of abstraction to avoid complexity (particularly complexity that doesn't enhance the richness of gameplay), so where we have, for example, at the player-level, a figure occupying a square, we have an assumption that the character that figure represents occupies only the centre point of that space (horizontally), and we ignore the possibility that the actual character could really be in a variety of poses and positions within the square, and I think in the same way we can apply similar principles by loosely comparing the furniture and figure heights and dividing them into two categories those that are clearly tall enough to block LOS entirely, the cupboard and bookcase, and those that aren't clearly tall enough to block LOS entirely (the others) without needing to be concerned with the details, such as whether a particular Dwarf is relatively is a tall or short member of his race, is in a shallow pit, but how deep is the pit, and whether he has a clear LOS across a table to a Fimir, who may be average height or may not, who may at that precise moment in time be crouching or jumping etc...

I recall some specific examples of tall furniture being placed in the middle of rooms (one that instantly comes to mind is in Mage of the Mirror there's a scenario where there's two bookcases or a bookcase in a cupboard in the middle of a room and a Giant Wolf is placed behind one. In the app, you can shoot straight through it with a spell to hit the monster on the other side without moving even if you are both adjacent to the furniture on opposite sides.

Not sure if any such examples appeared in the GS, KK, ROTWL, or ATOH (or WOM). Of course when First Light mentions "the original" HeroQuest, what precisely do they mean? The 2021 edition? 1990 NA edition it uses as a template? Or the 1989 original original? At least when ATOH remake refers to the original version of ATOH there's only one candidate that could refer to. But yeah, double check me on those facts.

I assumed "original" meant the first one, the one preceding all others in time, the one not derived from something else hence the 1989 version but you are correct in pointing out that AH may have been using the term differently in this context. Either way whether we consider the actual original which I don't think had any official quests where tall furniture was placed in such a way that LOS could have been blocked, because of the encouragement to create your own adventures it would have been more complete either to specify that tall furniture must always be placed against walls (so that the scenario didn't arise) or to include instructions on how to handle a scenario in which it wasn't. Under the 1990 remake where as you point out some published quests did give rise to this situation then the importance of providing instructions on how to handle the scenario becomes even greater but sadly neither version did either.

Whilst I'm not fully informed about the details of Avalon Hill era, if by stone blocks you are referring to blocked square tiles, then that is slightly different as they are not categorised as furniture.

I guess using in-universe logic, you could imagine that magical spells can be "heat seeking" or maybe their are being lobbed up into the air (tall enough ceiling?) to land on top of the heads of the characters and the hero is just that darn good at predicting his enemy's movement (or attentive to non-visual cues for the location of his target).

The issue with this is that in the original game certain magic missile spells did indeed use some form of mechanism like you suggest, such as Fire of Wrath, as they contain specific wording along the lines of "target any square on the board" so clearly no LOS required but by extension others did not have such wording so the implication here is that they must follow the usual rules otherwise why make the distinction?

[Parzival]

the App is way off for example, in allowing potions to be cast across rooms and corridors like they are actually spells, and yes, even right through bookcases and cupboards!

Dwarf: “By my beard… I’ve used my last Potion of Battle!”

Barbarian: “Catch!”

[wallydubbs]

In the encircled picture, which as obviously taken in the quest "The Trial," the Elf and Wizard both would be able to cast spells on the Barbarian. Many people play "line of sight" differently. Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?" I don't think so. If you have an orc standing between a hero and a goblin the hero can probably see the goblin but doesn't have "Line of sight." So the hero can't fire a Crossbow through the Orc to hit the Goblin. But when it comes to Spells, I'd allow the Wizard to cast Genie or Ball of Flame.
As Zargon you need to make such decisions.
Now if you're playing and you come into a situation where the Dwarf is standing between your hero and an Ogre. Due to size difference, I'd allow the hero to shoot a crossbow over the Dwarf's head.
Furniture like chests, tables and chairs probably wouldn't block Line of Sight, unless you're the Dwarf and the Throne 's back is right in front of you. But Bookcases and Cupboards always most definitely block both "line of sight" and "see."
In the case of diagonal, like you've outlined, all is good.

I recall the first time I played the Trial, the Barbarian, Elf and Dwarf were all back towards to Tomb while the Wizard was exploring. The Wizard got to the middle room with Verag, he waited outside the door, so at the start of his next turn he opened it, saw all the monsters inside and cast Swift Wind on himself. The monsters gave chase and the fight broke out in the hallways outside the middle room. The Wizard nooked in the corner, having sight on both the north of both hallways. The Dwarf stood between him and an Orc with a Dread Warrior behind the Orc.The Elf was blocking the other hallway holding off Verag. The Wizard had to cast Pass Through Rock on the Barbarian so her could get around and attack Verag from behind. On his next turn the Wizard wanted to cast Genie on the Dread Warrior, despite there being a Dwarf and Orc between them. I said no at first, but the player argued that the Wizard should be able to see him. So I made a judgement call and let it slide. If this was a crossbow and not a spell I probably wouldn't have allowed it, but you can reason a Genie can go around monsters since it's magical.