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Action Dice Mechanism

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » June 13th, 2022, 6:14 am

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:And the first version of my house rules did indeed use that, but I changed them, and for the life of me I now don’t remember any good reason why I did it…
Note to self: I really should implement version control / history of changes for the document, but I just can’t be bothered!


Funnily enough I started to go through my notes for the purposes of implementing some form of changelog for my “Penultimate Guide to HeroQuest” document and one of the first things I discovered was the reason why I had chosen NOT to use combat dice for the Body/Mind Tests

I was looking into what I refer to as the “unwritten rules” of HeroQuest, i.e., things that are not explicitly stated in the rulebook, but seem to be woven unstated into the rules and that perhaps should be called out and documented so that they can be considered when creating new rules or amending existing rules to keep everything consistent (for example all Heroes have Starting Body and Mind values that total to 10).

“Combat Dice (sometimes referred to as Attack or Defend Dice when used in that context) are used for combat and for other situations in which the outcome results in the potential loss of Body Points (or Mind Points) – such as the outcome of trap damage. Red Dice (sometimes referred to as Movement Dice when used in that context) are used for all other situations that are not covered by Combat Dice.”

That is why I didn’t want to use Combat Dice to determine the outcome of a Body or Mind Test as it won’t directly result in the loss of Body or Mind Points.
I think the only option that I have left for these tests is to use the “Red Dice” and just accept that my version will be best if 6 red dice are available rather than just the 2 supplied. That is stretching the principle “only use components provided in the box” however red dice are included in the box and I can’t think of any component of any game that is as cheap or as readily available…
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » August 17th, 2022, 11:55 am

My final, or at least current working version of these tests is...

“Strength of Mind” Test

Use: to break the effect of certain types of spells that target the mind; Sleep, Command, Fear

To carry out this test, roll a red die for each current Mind Point, if at least one six is rolled you have passed

Failure means that the spell effects remain in place.

"Strength of Body" Test

Use: to break down doors that cannot be opened normally, escape from man traps, bear hugs, lift a portcullis and similar

To carry out this test, roll a red die for each current Body Point, if at least one six is rolled you have passed.

A much harder version of this test may occasionally be required, indicated in the Quest Notes, which require you to roll at least two sixes to pass this test.

The consequences of failing this test will be detailed in the specific circumstances but when attempting to break down a door then a failed attempt will end your turn and result in a Wandering Monster being placed.
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby TheLastChaosWarrior » August 18th, 2022, 6:48 am

Yes, there is the one in ATOH where you have to get two souls on the number of cd that match your starting attack values.
Me and my Dad thought it better to have one relating to starting body points, which must be more relevant than your attack value, so went for-
Roll number of cd equal to starting bp value.
Must score at least 4 skulls to open the stone door.
We quickly realised it slows game up as except for Barb, it's quite hard to get four skulls with 7 and 6 dice and almost impossible with four!
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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » October 6th, 2022, 12:03 pm

I'm still not entirely happy with these tests so I've decided to expand out this review to all tests and see if that helps get some consistency!

I have described the various types of tests used in HeroQuest by type and outcome and have them grouped them by method below

Types of Test
• Simple Test - involves just one player who rolls, the outcome is determined by comparing that roll to a fixed value
• Compound Test - involves two antagonists, both roll, the outcome is determined by comparing the two rolls (effectively two simple tests with the outcome compared, also referred to as a contest)

By Outcome
• Binary – only two possible outcomes determined by the roll, success, or failure
• Ranged – outcome varies e.g., combat, 3 AD attack could result in failure 0 lost body points or a range of 0,1,2 or 3 lost Body Points and so on

Groups

1. Combat [Compound Test, Ranged Outcome]

The attacker attempts to roll as many skulls as possible, and the defender as many shields as possible using their attack and defend values to determine the number of combat dice used. If the attacker rolls more skulls than the defender rolls shields, the defender loses body points according to how many skulls they failed to defend against. Heroes count white shields and monster black shields.

Resolution: none required, happy with this as it is

Note: ATOH Mind Lock Spell introduces a Mind version of the Combat Test that uses the same mechanism as above for the purposes of determining spell effects and duration

The spell caster rolls a combat die for each Mind point, attempting to roll as many skulls as possible, and the defender rolls a combat die for each Mind point, attempting to roll as many shields as possible. If the attacker rolls more skulls than the defender rolls shields, the defender suffers the effects of the spell for a number of turns according to how many skulls they failed to defend against. Heroes count white shields and monster black shields.

Resolution: no issue with this mechanism as written, it uses an existing one, but using this test to determine duration as opposed to the spell break one used as standard in fear, sleep, and other spells (see below) is an inconsistency, really need to decide which mechanism is best for this type of test.

2. Damage – [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

Roll a number of combat dice, lose one BP for each skull rolled, no option to defend.
• Spear Trap - Roll 1 combat die. If you roll a skull, you suffer 1 Body Point of damage. You may NOT roll Defend Dice. This ends your turn. If you roll either a black or white shield, you have dodged out of the way of the spear. You may then continue with your move.
• Falling Block – Roll 3 combat dice. For each skull rolled, you suffer 1 Body Point of damage. You may NOT roll Defend Dice.
• KK Quest 3 Note A – Rolling Boulder Trap 5 Combat Dice, you may NOT roll Defend Dice.


Note: This test could be considered as just the attack half of the combat test with no option to defend

Resolution: none required, happy with this as it is

3. Variant Damage – [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

Variant of the Falling Block Traps Damage

Roll a red die, on a roll of 4,5, or 6 lose one Body Point. If wearing a Helmet, then lose one Body Point on a roll of 6 only.

Resolution: This one for reasons that are not clear uses a red die rather than the traditional combat die “Roll a combat die, on a roll of a skull lose one Body Point. If wearing a Helmet, then lose one Body Point on a roll of black shield only.” Would be consistent and would bring this in line with the standard damage test number 2, or even simpler just drop the Helmet piece

4. Yet Another Variant Damage Test– [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

It will inflict x Body Points of Damage. The monster then rolls x Red Dice. For each 5 or 6 rolled the damage is reduced by 1 point

Examples - Ball of Flame – Fire and Dread (2 Body Points/Red Dice) / Fire of Wrath (1 Body Points/Red Die), Firestorm (3 Body Points / 2 Red Dice)

Special Exception: Whilst technically not another test, or even a test at all I would include the Lightning Bolt Spell in this category. It uses a fixed 2 body points of damage with no defence which is another inconsistency as it is different from every other spell including the otherwise similar spells listed above.


Fixed Damage, Red Dice Defend

These three spells appear to be the only occasions when this distinct mechanism of fixed Body Point damage combined with a defend roll is used, as the only occasion where rolling red dice is used as a defend roll against body point damage.

Resolution: Changing the mechanism for all of these spells to use either

#1 – use the standard number 1 combat test i.e., roll 1/2/3 combat dice, defence roll, lose a BP for each excess skull
OR
#2 - use the standard number 2 damage test i.e., roll 1/2/3 combat dice, no defence, lose a BP for each skull

In my opinion I think that the nature of a fire based (or lightning-based) attack is sufficiently different from what armour is designed to resist that I would recommend option #2 and not permit a defence roll (this also makes these spells different from other ranged attacks in that they are more effective against armoured targets).

5. “Action” Test – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

Common mechanism for a number of tests, all simple tests with a binary outcome, all use combat dice, to cover various actions/activities

• Jump (single-square) - Roll 1 combat die, success if anything but a skull, fail if a skull – successful outcome is that you clear the pit and continue your move, failed outcome is that you fall into the pit and suffer 1 Body Point of damage – success is black or white shield [4+]
• Disarm (Tool Kit, not Dwarf) - Roll 1 combat die. If you roll a skull, you have sprung the trap, suffering body damage. If you roll either a black or white shield, the trap is disarmed. – success is black or white shield [4+]
• Disarm (Dwarf) - Roll 1 combat die. If you roll a black shield, you have sprung the trap, suffering body damage. If you roll anything except a black shield, the trap is disarmed. – success is skull or white shield [2+]
• Slippery Ice - Whenever a Hero moves onto a slippery ice square, the Hero rolls 1 combat die. If a white shield is rolled, the Hero falls and his turn ends immediately. Any other roll means the Hero can continue moving (if he has moves left) – success is skull or black shield [3+]
• Icy Ledge (double test, failing the first leads to the second) – rolls 1 combat die, if skull or white shield then success otherwise needs to take a second roll, if skull or white shield then success, otherwise death! – success is skull or white shield [5+] (failing twice has really bad consequences)


Resolution: these could all be converted to use a single red die, and have a target number, roll equal to or greater than target number means success. This way you only need to remember the target number for each type - given in [] in the examples above.

I would also recommend adding the “rule of one” to all tests within this category i.e. A natural roll of 1 on the die is a failure irrespective to any modifiers

Personally, I would consider the second part of the icy ledge test (and other similar bottomless chasm scenarios) to be a separate test named a 'cliff-hanger test'

6. Spell Break Test – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

Spell takes effect immediately but can be broken at once or on a future turn by the victim rolling one red die for each of its Mind Points. If at least one 6 is rolled, the spell is broken
Examples, sleep, command, fear*, cloud of chaos


*Cannot be broken at once, only on a future turn – is this an oversight?

Resolution: This is fine how it is, but is referred to as a Strength of Mind Test under HeroQuest Gold rules, but see next entry

7. Variant Spell Break Test – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

ATOH Mind Lock brings us a different spell break test

Roll one combat dice for each Mind Point. If they manage to roll three or more skulls, they have broken the effects.
Resolution: Either need to use the mind combat process to determine spell duration OR the spell break test. Either way the spell break test needs to be standardised.

8. Mind Attack – [Simple Test, Ranged Outcome]

KK – Quest 9 Note B - Borokk’s “very special and deadly magical power”.
On each of his turns, he attacks the “mind” of any Hero in the same room or corridor and in his line of sight. To do this, Borokk rolls 2 combat dice. For each skull he rolls, the victim of the attack loses 1 Mind Point.


Resolution: This could just be considered to be the standard #2 damage test although effecting Mind rather than Body Points, but I think this could be improved so that it uses the standard #1 combat test by with Mind Points i.e., the attacker/caster rolls a combat dice for each Mind Point and the defender does the same, any excess skulls cause loss of Mind Points

9. Variant Mind Attack – [Compound Test, Binary Outcome]

Dominate Spell from ATOH

The Chaos Sorcerer must attack its target by rolling a number of Combat Dice equal to its Mind Points, while the defender does the same to defend themselves. The Chaos Sorcerer must score at least two skulls in its Mind Attack.

Uses a standard (Mind) combat mechanism but needs the caster to get 2 excess skulls to produce a binary outcome, spell is either successful or it isn’t

10. Yet Another Variant Mind Attack – [Compound Test, Ranged Outcome]

Mind Blast Spell from ATOH

This spell allows a Chaos Sorcerer to inflict Mind Point damage on another character without having to be adjacent to them, or physically attacking them. A Chaos Sorcerer with this spell receiving the number of Mind Blast tokens specified in the Quest notes. Each time it attacks, it must discard one of the tokens. It may only use as many Mind Blasts as it has tokens.

To attack with a Mind Blast, both characters roll a number of Combat Dice equal to their Mind Points and add up the number of Skulls they have. The one with the most Skulls, be it attacker or defender then inflicts Mind Point damage on their opponent equal to the number of skulls they have in excess of their opponents score. If both scores are equal, neither character inflicts any damage.


Again, a unique mechanism that sort of resembles other mechanism but does really match any of them. It is almost a standard combat mechanism, but you compare skulls and the one with the highest either attacker or defender (not sure if that is the correct terminology in this particular instance) inflicts Mind damage on the other.

This is the only occasion in HQ as far as I am aware where simultaneous combat or contest occurs and it breaches the simple principle of, I attack you on my turn, you defend THEN on your turn you attack me, and I defend

Resolution: this could be converted to use the combat test #1 (using Mind values) as written.

There is also a second inconsistency here around spells only being allowed to be cast once (which can be overruled by artefacts, but this isn’t an inconsistency around testing, so I’ll ignore it here.

11. Strength of Mind – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

Warded Gate - KK – Quest 9 Note D – Roll 2 Red Dice, if total rolled is equal to or less than current Mind Point value then pass through the door, otherwise fail to pass through gate and turn ends. The Dwarf needs to roll only 1 Red dice

This test uses a roll 2 red dice, equal or less than current Mind Point value, which is a unique mechanism.

Resolution: Replace this with the Strength of Mind Test (#6 Spell Break Test). To carry out this test, roll a red die for each Mind Point, if at least one six is rolled you have passed (and Dwarf gets to roll an extra die in this particular example)

12. Strength (Of Body) – [Simple Test, Binary Outcome]

KK – Quest 6 Note A – This door has been locked for many years. To open the door, a Hero must stand next to it (adjacent) and roll 2 Red Dice. If he rolls, less than his starting number of body points, the door will open. If he fails to open the door, his turn will end

This test uses a roll 2 red dice, less than starting Body Point value, which is a unique mechanism that is superficially similar to test 10 but is not consistent with than test either as it uses ‘less than’ instead of ‘less than or equal to’ and uses starting points rather than current points.

For both #6/11 and #12 we need to decide whether these should be starting MP/BP or current? Using current adds an interesting twist, however it is inconsistent with the HQ logic that your attack dice, movement etc doesn’t decrease as you get injured, it is what it is until you are dead, which is simpler, so I have gone with that option.

Conclusion
So, the official rules provide 11 different testing mechanisms (as #8 is the same as #2 as written) and implementing my recommended changes, some tweaks may be needed to get the balance right in terms of comparing the stats of the original rolls compared with those of the new rolls, would result in reducing that to 5

This has to be simpler and more consistent!

Afterthought: Finally, is there a disarm test for magical traps, I haven’t yet found one but feel that spell casters should have this ability, and would recommend using the standard Spell Break/Strength of Mind test?
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Jabie » November 2nd, 2022, 8:36 am

The way I will apply it in future quests I design will be to use a 2d6 test versus Mind Points, but every check will have a speciality e.g. A test associated with mining might be Mind (Dwarf), whereas identifying heraldic symbols would be Mind (Knight). Specialists only require 1d6. Body tests would work in much the same way, although there may be fewer specialities.
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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » June 20th, 2023, 8:19 am

As I have now converted Mind Points into Mind Dice see Change of Mind for details, this has removed the need for consistency between the Test of Strength for Mind and the same for Body making this conversation a lot simpler!

Test of Strength

Used for forcing open a jammed door, such as the one in Kellar’s Keep – Quest 6 The Great Citadel or particularly heavy doors, such as Stone Doors from AtOH
A character may attempt to force open a jammed or heavy door as an action. Roll a red die, if you score a six or more then you have been successful, otherwise you have failed.
• Barbarian +3
• Dwarf +2
• Elf +1
• Wizard +0

Breaking Down Doors

In certain situations, it may be necessary to attempt to break down a door – for example, a door that is bolted or barred from the other side. Breaking down a door is an attack action, and the character must be adjacent to the door. All doors have a default value of 6 defend die and 1 Body point.
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby burglekutt » June 30th, 2023, 8:23 pm

Some good arguments for & against all of these options.
Yeah it's a bummer to have to roll so many dice for Strength related stuff using BPoints.

I'm tempted to use this system I stole off someone for Unarmed combat.

HAND2HAND(Brawl):
Each BodyPoint can take four Skulls damage before the BPoint is lost. You are unconscious when all your BPoints are lost & will awaken at the end of the quest unless a spell or potion helps you.

Gargoyle, Chaos Warrior = 4CDice.
Barbarian, Dwarf/Mummy, Fimir = 3CD
Elf/ Orc, Zombie = 2CD
Wizard/ Skeleton, Goblin = 1CD

I don't want to have to make another system for strength or Athletic related rolls so it looks like I'm forced to use this system.

Maybe the trick is if you figure out your Unarmed combat rules it will help to come up with strength/body related rolls.

Contested rolls could be similar to what's proposed with rolling Skulls vs Skulls.
An Orc may not be able to push a door open against the Barbarian without help, but he could against the Wizard.

Portcullis: 3 or 5 :skull:'s needed to lift depending if you want two or more heroes to lift it or don't mind it taking a couple turns to accomplish. The Skulls could be cumulative as long as the hero does nothing else.

Bust open a chest 1 :skull: ? Etc.

Might take the Wizard a couple turns to bust open a Chest, so better to just let the Barbarian or Dwarf do it:)
Just some ideas.
Last edited by burglekutt on May 10th, 2025, 9:57 pm, edited 33 times in total.
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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » July 3rd, 2023, 4:19 am

Josh wrote:Yeah it's a bummer to have to roll so many dice for Strength related stuff using BPoints.


Roll one red die, 6+ to succeed, mods as below
• Barbarian = +3
• Dwarf = +2
• Elf = +1
• Wizard = 0

And I wouldn't use this for actions that are free of a roll in the existing rules, like forcing open a chest, no roll required today so I wouldn't change that as it would just slow things down. I would only use this strength test sparingly, where a strength test is already called for in the quest notes, like the "stuck door" in one of the quests, stone doors in ATOH, and maybe some special features like the portcullis, as you suggest.

Josh wrote:Maybe the trick is if you figure out your Unarmed combat rules it will help to come up with strength/body related rolls.


My unarmed combat rules just assume that the unarmed character is using an improvised weapon that gives him 1AD. No need for anything more complicated as this only crops up in a couple of quests out of about 50!
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » August 31st, 2023, 10:02 am

A friend of mine recently mentioned how much they enjoyed playing Mice and Mystics and thought it would be right up my street. This prompted a little investigation on my part, some perusing of online reviews and a parsing of the rulebook and I came to the conclusion that whilst she is probably correct, Mice and Mystics and HeroQuest appear to occupy the same “slot” in terms of both being broadly co-operative dungeon crawlers (Mice and Mystics has a different and strong theme but is essentially a dungeon crawler under the hood) with similar requirements in terms of players, space, time taken and so on so I haven’t rushed out and bought it, mainly because if all the conditions are met for me to have a game then I’d probably just play HeroQuest instead!

However, my brief foray into the rules of Mice and Mystics did result in my noticing that a number of areas of play within Mice and Mystics are common with HeroQuest but use different mechanisms to deliver essentially the same result and as the games are so similar, I thought that our HQ experience may benefit from this additional source of inspiration, even if it is just a consider and discount, but please bear in mind I haven’t played M&M yet so I may have misunderstood some rules (as opposed to HQ where I have been playing for over 3 decades and may still have misunderstood some rules) so this isn't a review of Mice and Mystics just some thoughts about HQ that have bubbled up whilst investigating M&M and this will be the first of potentially quite a few posts!

The 5 identical “Action Dice” in M&M use symbols as follows:
• 1, Cheese
• 2, Bow
• 2, Sword, Star
• 1, Bow, Star
• 3, Sword, Shield
• 3, Sword, Shield, Star

Which are used as
• “Swords” [3/6] used in combat to determine ‘hits’ as Skulls in HQ, same odds [3/6]
• “Shields” [2/6] used in combat to determine ‘blocks’ as White Shields in HQ, same odds but note here no white shield / black shield split for heroes and Monsters see more on the Monster's defend dice topic
• “Numbers” [1-3] used for movement, which uses a fixed movement value, different for different characters, but 2 appears common + D3. Modifying movement dice in HQ is discussed on the Is 2 red dice for Hero move best? topic
• “Cheese” [1/6] – used for levelling up, activating certain abilities and encounters
• “Stars” [3/6] - are used for several things, most often to check a mouse’s success at overcoming a given obstacle.

This prompted a few thoughts...

Combat Dice as Movement Dice

The use of a variety of symbols to combine the skulls, shields of HQ’s combat dice AND the numbers of the movement dice, amongst other things is interesting, whilst I don’t think this is essential for HQ, the idea of adding numbers to the combat dice faces and merging the two is food for thought (that wasn’t intended to be a cheesy pun, but the cheesy pun cheesy pun was both deliberate and contrived)

Combat Dice as Combat Dice

The idea of having a combined skull/shield face, which counts as a skull for hand-to-hand attacks and as a shield for defence is an efficient use of “face space” (can I coin that phrase, you heard it here first, folks)

The idea of using bows and swords to represent different probabilities of damage from hand-to-hand attacks as from missile attacks, could be used to further differentiate between the two, same number of attack dice but lower probabilities may be useful to represent the higher difficulty of hitting a target with a missile as opposed to hand to hand attack …for example white shields having a bow icon as well (or white shields being used to determine missile attack hits instead of skulls) so missile attacks have a 2/6 rather than the standard 3/6

My “Super-HeroQuest” rule (in my signature, but repeated below in case by the time you read this I have changed my signature) uses a similar idea to in that hand-to-hand attack ‘hits’ are represented by either the skull or the black shield, push back opportunities are also represented by the black shield in hand-to-hand attacks and missile weapons use the traditional skulls only as hits…white shields become just the shields and block a hit as usual.

Super HeroQuest Rule:
:skull: = white skull, lose 1BP unless blocked by shield
:blackshield: = black skull, as white skull + activates push back
:whiteshield: = shield, blocks a skull


Taking all this into account I've started to reconsider the HQ Combat Dice, not to change the symbols as for me they are an essential and iconic part of HQ and not something I would ever want to change but whilst the dice symbols are fixed, their meaning may be more fluid.

• :skull: these represent harm, damage and potentially death, so a skull is fitting and appropriate
• :whiteshield: these represent defence, safety, protection, so a shield is appropriate
• :blackshield: these are little less clear cut, both visually as they don't really look like a shield, just a cool icon on a black background, in-game they are mainly used for monster defence but that doesn't generate the same strong associated feeling in (hero) players that white shields do, for the good reason that they don't protect heroes, the feeling generated is more of frustration or inconvenience when they are rolled in combat.

So :skull: and :whiteshield: both have a clear and strong association to their function but the :blackshield: feels like more of a floater "special symbol" like the "star" in Mice and Mystics in fact, whose meaning depends on the context. So, to use/abuse and strengthen these principles I started to think around when :skull: and :whiteshield: are used for anything other than the purposes stated above and to reinforce the "special status" of the :blackshield:

Defence

So, the :whiteshield: would be used for all defence rolls, reinforcing its association with shielding, defence, protection and simplifying the game a little.
The :blackshield: wouldn’t be used in defence as standard but certain effects, potions, items, artefacts, spells could count the :blackshield: as an extra shield

Hand-to-hand Attack

The :blackshield: would count as an extra skull, a hit, to partially offset the defend bonus of the monsters using :whiteshield: AND to differentiate between a :skull: and a :blackshield:, the :blackshield would have the additional property of activating a push back.

Missile Attack

The :blackshield: wouldn’t do anything special in a standard missile attack, which reduces the “strength” of missile attacks over their hand-to-hand counterparts representing the higher chance of missing but again for certain effects, potions, items, artefacts, spells could count the :blackshield: as an extra :skull:

Combat Dice as not Combat Dice

Combat Dice are mostly used for Combat and Damage, hence the name but within base HQ, they are also used in non-combat situations, for example
• Spell Break (NA) – roll # combat die (where # is number of mind points), at least one :blackshield: to break
• Jump - roll a combat die, :whiteshield: or :blackshield: = success (prob = 0.5)
• Disarm (with the Tool Kit) - roll a combat die, :whiteshield: or :blackshield: = success (prob = 0.5)
• Disarm (Dwarf - NA rules) - roll a combat die, :whiteshield: or :skull: = success (prob = 0.83)
• Stone Doorways (Against the Ogre Horde) - roll # combat dice, score at least two skulls - Dwarf & Elf # =2, Barbarian # = 3, Wizard = 0

Standardising all this and reinforcing the "theme" of the symbols how about we take the general principle of the Spell Break text mechanism and examine that in a little more detail.

Mechanism: Use a roll # combat dice and score at least one :blackshield: to suceed

Odds of success based on number of dice rolled: 1 (17%), 2 (31%), 3 (42%), 4 (52%), 5 (60%), 6 (67%)

Note that there is a law of diminishing returns is present here where each extra die rolled increases your odds, but by a decreasing amount. This is useful to note as it adds scalability, you could in theory roll 10 combat dice and never be guaranteed a success, unlike a D6 for example.

Apply this mechanism to all non-combat rolls

Action Dice

Roll the number of combat dice shown and succeed if you roll at least one :blackshield:

• Jump (single square) - roll 4 dice
• Disarm (Tool Kit) - roll 4 dice
• Disarm (Dwarf NA edition) would just get to roll an extra die (so 5 in total)
• Opening Stone Doors - same principle but # might be Barbarian 4, Dwarf 3, Elf 2, and Wizard 1


Conclusion

Apply a common mechanism to all non-combat rolls is simpler to learn and remember for players, simpler to apply for EWPs and is easily modifiable, by varying # the number of combat dice rolled, so you could easily add items that boost your jumping (Boots of Leaping, Potion of Speed/Dexterity - extra die), your opening of secret doors (Potion of Strength – extra die) and so on without having to get complicated around stacking…if my Boots of Leaping give me a +1 bonus in conventional HQ how does that change my dice roll, what if I stack that with the Potion of Dexterity or Speed…
Last edited by Bareheaded Warrior on May 29th, 2025, 8:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


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Re: Action Dice Mechanism

Postby Bareheaded Warrior » September 7th, 2023, 12:13 pm

I've recently created a new topic Of Mice and Mystics: Action Dice, part of which relates to this conversation, so just summarising the relevant parts...

Combat Dice as Action Dice

And now we finally reach the something of a lightning meets primordial soup moment...drum roll please...

My logic on this topic so far has been built around the argument that "Combat Dice" should be for combat (the clue is in the name) and the closely related damage mechanism and the red dice should be for movement and all related activities, like jumping and disarming (which take place as part of movement).

And whilst still I stand by that in terms of the logic, it caused a blockage in my repeated attempts to introduce a clear, consistent and distinct "3rd mechanism" that I have always thought HQ was lacking (Combat and Damage being 1 and 2 respectively - it could be argued that they are variants of the same mechanism but there we are) to cover other situations that weren't damage or combat related and neither were they 2D6 for movement: (and I'll list these below in a later edit as they are very varied and numerous, more than you would think at first glance)

So, rename Combat Dice as Action Dice, introduce a standard Action mechanism, for any situation that is not movement, combat or damage (list below)

Action Mechanism wrote:Roll # combat dice, at least one :blackshield: = success


Odds of success based on number of combat dice rolled
• 1 = 0.167 ~1/6
• 2 = 0.306 ~2/6
• 3 = 0.421
• 4 = 0.518 ~3/6
• 5 = 0.598
• 6 = 0.665 ~4/6

Note: that there is a law of diminishing returns is present here where each extra die rolled increases your odds, but by a decreasing amount. This is useful to note as it adds scalability, you could in theory roll 10 combat dice and never be guaranteed a success, unlike a D6 for example.

Note: You may notice that this is the same mechanism that is already in place for EA sleep spell

Example: Sleep Spell

This spell will put one player or monster to sleep. He may try to defend himself by rolling one die per Mind point. If he rolls a shield he is unaffected. Once asleep he may not defend if attacked. He will awake if he rolls a six at the start of his turn, or if attacked.


This example features two different mechanisms on the same card, the "initial defend against an attack on your mind" which uses "roll one die per mind point, roll a shield and you pass" and the spell break test, to shake off the lingering effects of a spell already cast, the "roll a die at the start of your turn and score a six to break the effects"

Examples

(1) Spell Break

(NA) – roll one combat die per mind point, at least one shield (white or black or both isn't clear) to pass

(EU) - roll a six at the start of his turn to pass, presumably using # of red dice equal to mind points (altthough it may just be 1 red die - not clear)

NEW - Roll one combat die per mind point, at least one :blackshield: = success [prob = 0.518]

(2) Jump

Existing - roll a combat die, :whiteshield: or :blackshield: = success [prob = 0.5]

NEW - Roll 4 combat dice, at least one :blackshield: = success [prob = 0.518]

(3) Disarm

(a) Disarm (with the Tool Kit) - roll a combat die, :whiteshield: or :blackshield: = success (prob = 0.5)

(b) Disarm (Dwarf - NA rules) - roll a combat die, :whiteshield: or :skull: = success (prob = 0.83)

NEW - Roll 2 combat dice, at least one :blackshield: = success [prob = 0.306]

Dwarf gets to roll 2 extra dice

(4) Stone Doorways (Against the Ogre Horde)

Existing - roll # combat dice, score at least two skulls - # is Barbarian = 3, Dwarf & Elf = 2, Wizard = 0

NEW - Roll # combat dice, at least one :blackshield: = success. # is Barbarian = 3, Dwarf & Elf = 2, Wizard = 0

Although on that last one I would prefer # is Barbarian = 4, Dwarf = 3, Elf = 2, Wizard = 1

Conclusion

Applying a common mechanism to all non-combat rolls is simpler to learn and remember for players, simpler to apply for EWPs and is easily modifiable, by varying # the number of combat dice rolled, so you could easily add items that boost your jumping (Boots of Leaping, Potion of Speed/Dexterity - extra die), your opening of secret doors (Potion of Strength – extra die) and so on without having to get complicated around stacking…if my Boots of Leaping give me a +1 bonus in conventional HQ how does that change my dice roll, what if I stack that with the Potion of Dexterity or Speed…
Last edited by Bareheaded Warrior on September 17th, 2023, 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
:skull: = one hit
:blackshield: = one hit & pushback
:whiteshield: = cancels one hit

HQ versions: "Original" - 1989 1st edition & 1990 2nd edition, "Remake" - 1990 NA remake & 2021 reprint

HQ Golden Rules
FAQs, Errata & Clarifications for the Original Editions
HQ Common Notification System

1BP = :goblin: :orc: :skeleton: :zombie:
2BP = :fimir: :mummy: :chaoswarrior:
3BP = :gargoyle:


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