Again another MindPoint thread

[burglekutt]

We have threads on the many ways to make Mind Points more usefull in the game & here's a few I stole & thought would work & none of them count as actions.

You'll notice that four of the NA Chaos Spells (cloud of chaos, Fear, command, sleep) all require you to roll 1D6 for each of your MindPoints & you need just one 6 to resist the spell.
I don't see why all spells/mental situations aren't handled like this.

You could buy a bunch of D6's if you want, but the Wizard deserves a chance at using the CombatDice like everyone else, so 6's(BlackShields) is what I'm going with.

MAGIC:
All magic are automatic hits.
Monsters roll Defense, but Heros use MindPoints. Both need a single BShield to resist most spells.

Examples:
"Ball of Flame" does two automatic hits & the enemy needs a BShield with Defense to minimize the Damage by one.

EW casts "Command" & the Barbarian rolls MPoints & needs a single BShield to resist now or on a future turn.

"Tempest"- Monster rolls Defense & needs oneBShield to dispell, while a Hero rolls MPoints & needs the same.

Here's some other MPoint ideas:

SEARCHING:
Roll a BlackShield with MindPoints to discover one more thing (SDoor or Treasure).
Assume Hero's seach for Traps with their first action, but by rolling two BShields all three are discovered at once!
Hell, you might even get a bonus for rolling three BlackShields or more!
(Wizard)

LISTENING:
Roll one BlackShield with MindPoints to hear/discern ONE of the weakest monsters in an unopened room while listening at the door.
TWO BShields reveals one of the weakest & one of the next strongest etc,etc.

Only one hero at a time & are not cumulative & never tells you how many of each are in there & never shows the Boss or furniture.

Just throwing a few ideas out there.

[burglekutt]

It's too bad the game makers gave us the impression that the BlackShields on the NA CombatDice could only be used for the enemies defense.
When Ball of Flame is being used by a Hero or the EW, both arbitrarily roll 2d6 & need a 5or6 to defend?
How come the wizard with his 6 MindPoints isn't able to defend against magic any better than a goblin? Lol

They should have gave the BlackShield an "Occult" meaning instead so that the Wizard could shine with his 6 MindPoints while rolling the CombatDice!

Anyway, what do y'all think of having most magic being resisted with a single 6 or BShield with MindPoints?
If you wanna use 1d6's instead for MindPoints, feel free, but I just don't like the idea of some spells needing you to roll MindPoints and other spells needing you to roll one or two 1d6s, I think they should be the same especially to give the wizard an edge.

I think this is genius, am I missing anything?

[lestodante]

I guess defending against a Ball of Flame requires physical agility to avoid it, so no Mind Points should be involved in such (and many others) case.
Otherwhise undead creatures should roll zero dice to defend against a spell and are always hit.
Some spells require to roll a red dice probably to avoid confusion beetween black and white shields. They just wanted a chance of 2/6 to defend against the spell but white shields are usually intended to be hero's shields, so they avoided the use of white shield (and combat dice) for monsters defence.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

We have threads on the many ways to make Mind Points more usefull in the game & here's a few I stole & thought would work & none of them count as actions.

You'll notice that four of the NA Chaos Spells (cloud of chaos, Fear, command, sleep) all require you to roll 1D6 for each of your MindPoints & you need just one 6 to resist the spell.
I don't see why all spells/mental situations aren't handled like this.

You could buy a bunch of D6's if you want, but the Wizard deserves a chance at using the CombatDice like everyone else, so 6's(BlackShields) is what I'm going with.

MAGIC:
All magic are automatic hits.
Monsters roll Defense, but Heros use MindPoints. Both need a single BShield to resist most spells.

Examples:
Ball of Flame does two automatic hits & the enemy needs a BShield with Defense to minimize the Damage by one.

EW casts "Command" & the Barbarian rolls MPoints & needs a single BShield to resist now or on a future turn.

Coming up with separate spells for the living & Undead would suck, but if you use their Defense, it's close to the MindPoint value they should have when it comes to defending against magic comparable to the Hero's using MPoints.

I agree with lestodante, some spells, I call them "Mind Attack" spells, like Fear, Sleep, Command/Dominate, Mind Blast and others should definitely have some form of mechanism to resist that favours the Wizard, although I prefer a different mechanism to the "all require you to roll 1D6 for each of your MindPoints & you need just one 6 to resist the spell" for reasons that I have given on the topic named Inconsistent Spell Break Mechanism for "Mind Attack Spells", but I'm not sure that all spells fit into that category...fire burns whether you are a Wizard or not.

Another example of how Mind Points could be more utilised would be spells that restore lost BP, restore a number up to the MP of the caster.

[burglekutt]

I guess defending against a Ball of Flame requires physical agility to avoid it, so no Mind Points should be involved in such (and many others) case.

This was discussed a few years back & I think the forum was split on this. They decided it was between dodging or "absorbing" the magic, but had everything to do with how to handle the Undead.

But if it's only about agility then the Goblin would have 4d6 considering his size & 10 Movement.
I gathered that your armor class(Defense) + or MindPoints would be more appropriate.
I figured id meet half way & allow monsters to use Defense & Hero's use MindPoints to deflect/ absorb magic. This way the wizard completely stands out as a badass & the Heros just step out of his way:)

Using the monsters Defense also works out when one of the most common evil magic users you come across is the Gargoyle with his 5 Defense. This makes it feasible for the wizard to have a dramatic standoff with his 6MPoints & win.

Some spells require to roll a red dice probably to avoid confusion beetween black and white shields.

True. I think this is when they realized magic couldn't be based soley on MindPoints because their Undead had none, and that they wanted heros & monsters to have the same chance of dodging without letting the monsters roll WShields like you said.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Bearing in mind that "magic missile" type spells like the Ball of Flame are generally single-shot one-off attacks then you would expect them to be more powerful and distinctive than just the equivalent of the Wizard using a Crossbow, so my assumption was that they hit automatically and then you roll for the effects of damage, in the case of a Ball of Flame, that would be damage resulting from being set on fire (and I would suggest that would be three combat dice, lose a BP for each skull rolled, so no defence as you are already hit and any armour would not have the usual effect)

As you say if it was based on agility then a Goblin would do very well, but they don't, they get the same roll as everyone else, because it isn't based on agility. Equally if it was based on magical ability then the Wizard should get a better roll, but he doesn't because it isn't.

The origin of the fire is magical but it is still fire, it still burns, it still causes damage and that damage isn't influenced by armour, ability to resist magic (Mind Points), agility, dexterity, movement score.

It could however be defended against if you have a Potion of Fire Resistance or a Cloak made of Dragon scales or similar...

[burglekutt]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6487

This is pretty dope.
My single BShield defense system allows the wizard to shine only when he is defending, but yours is offering the Wizard's MindPoints to be effective for attacks.
So far Im liking this skulls vs skulls system & might be including it latter.

My only problem is it sounds like you'll end up with three different magic systems to juggle.
#1 Skulls vs skulls for "Mind attacks".
#2 Fire Balls/missile spells roll a set number of AttDice.
#3 Undead will need their own spells?

Since you're not using the monsters "Defense" & the Undead don't have MindPoints, I'm guessing you'll have to make a different system up for them, right?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

There is some more information here: Change of Mind but essentially to answer your points.

Magic Missile

Some spells are categorised as "magic missile" spells, like Ball of Flame, Fire of Wrath, these do damage using the standard "roll x combat dice, lose a BP for each skull" mechanism which is a cut down version of the standard combat mechanism, but with no defence. This damage mechanism is already widely used in standard HQ, many traps use this for example, so nothing "new" here but more consistency and it gives these spells an edge over their non-magical equivalents like the Crossbow in that they don't allow a defence roll.

Mind Attack

Some spells are categorised as "mind attack" spells, like Mind Blast, Dominate, Mind Freeze, Sleep, Fear in that they attack the mind of the target. This uses the Mind Combat mechanism, which is exactly the same as the usual combat mechanism except the Attack value used is the Mind value and the Defend value used is also the Mind value. This means that we can re-use an existing mechanism, keeping it simple, consistent and familiar to players, but by using a different value, this makes a big change of effect, the Wizard for example will be rolling 6AD and 6DD compared to the Barbarian a mere 2AD and 2DD which is exactly the reversal that we are after. It also as you point out increases the utilisation of the Mind value as it can be used in both mind attack and defence rather than just the latter.

Zero Mind Value

Some monsters have a zero Mind value, Skeletons, Zombies, Mummies which is a special condition which means that they cannot cast spells and they are immune to the effects of Mind Attack spells as they have no mind to attack. Other monsters including some undead have a Mind value above 0 like the Wraith (eg Death Mist) and Lich (Witch Lord, Kassandria), so even though they are Undead they don't have a zero Mind value, so no requirement for new spells for Undead.

So no issue with 3 different magic systems to juggle, magic missiles use the existing damage mechanism and mind attacks use the existing combat mechanism so no different magic systems at all!

[burglekutt]

So no issue with 3 different magic systems to juggle,

What mechanism would you use for Undead spells like "Hold Undead or Command Undead" etc?
I'm guessing you'd need to count Psyonic/telekinetic attacks like "Levitate Undead, Force push Undead" similar to your Magic Missle 3AttDie system?

Anyway, what do you think of my "Searching/Listening" MindPoint use idea?
Is there a way to do these two better for members who refuse to use BlackShields? Or are these abilities to OP etc?
There's gotta be more MindPoint uses I can get on this thread. Thanks everyone!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I'm not familiar with these spells - "Hold Undead", "Command Undead", "Levitate Undead", "Force push Undead" so can't really answer that one?

In terms of searching I have rewritten that entire section of rules as it is filled with flaws in the original game (all editions), but I wouldn't use the "Mind" value as a basis for searching anyway as Mind is defined as "This is a measure of your hero’s wisdom and magical aptitude. They show how well they can use magic and, more importantly, how well they can resist it" and I don't see any link between the ability to search well and wisdom and use of magic.

Same applies to listening, I don't see why the "Mind" attribute is relevant to listening and I find your suggestion on this subject to be relatively complicated for no real return in improved gameplay.

For me increasing the use of the "Mind" value can be achieved through the things that I have already mentioned, increasing the number of spell casters and the number of Mind Attack spells and similar artefacts.

In addition I use the Mind Attack mechanism to provide Liches (Witch Lord & Kassandria) with a Life Drain ability that allows them to cause damage and restore their own BP through touch, the Wraith (Death Mist) has a similar ability but strikes by passing through enemies and there are couple of other sorcerers with a similar Mind attack ability like Petrokk and Gragar

EDIT: I forgot another use of Mind value that I have implemented, spellcasters ability to detect and disarm magic traps, but some of the detail of this may only make sense in the context of my rule modifications around search and disarming.

- Rulebook (Book of Traps): Magical Traps
Some traps are magically triggered and cannot be detect and disarmed by any character apart from spellcasters. If a non-spellcaster steps on a magically trapped tile, opens a chest or door, then the trap is activated automatically with no detect and disarm roll.
If a spellcaster steps on a magically trapped tile, opens a chest or door, then they may make a detect and disarm roll as per the standard rules above, and they gain a +1 to their roll for each Mind dice above 4.

Note: The toolkit bonus does not apply to magical traps