Another search suggestion; WD+D6

[Stig]

[edited for clarity 16/2/23]

I've been thinking a lot about searching recently, especially given this thread on Search for Treasure & Secret Doors:
http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2666&hilit=Searching+furniture

and my own previous searching uncertainty idea:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5067

and have come up with the following idea:

The Search Action

A Hero may make a COMBINED search for traps+secret doors+treasure in a room/corridor. When a hero carries out a Search action, roll

On anything other than a they find the number of traps/secret doors/treasures indicated by the D6, up to the number indicated by the quest notes, ie if the D6 roll is a 4 but there is only one trap and one secret door, Zargon reveals just the traps and secret door; and a treasure card if it's a room. Rooms always contain one treasure card if there isn't any quest treasure in the furniture. If there are more things located on the map than the D6 shows, then it is up to Zargon to choose which ones the heroes have found! That way, searches have the option of being incomplete - creating tension. "Are there any undiscovered traps...?"

This roll doesn't include treasure in chests, which need to be searched separately, just room/furnture treasure. If there is no treasure indicated in the quests notes for a room, the heroes draw a Treasure Card as normal. Furniture (other than treasure chests) does not need to be searched separately.

If they roll a they do not find anything; a wandering monster is placed in a square adjacent to any entry door to the room, and may move and attack any hero.

The search radius is the hero's current MPs - so the Barbarian is rubbish at searching, which is as it should be! The heroes need to spread out to search properly, which is realistic. The Dwarf has a special skill "Dungoneer" which doubles their search radius.

Treasure chests: I like Bareheaded Warrior's rule on this:

14.7 Looting Treasure Chests
Treasure Chests are always locked.

14.8 A player character standing adjacent to a treasure chest in a room that does not contain any monsters may as an action force open the chest and loot (pick up) the contents.

14.9 If the chest is trapped, then this action will trigger the trap and he will suffer the consequences but will still pick up the contents.

14.10 A player character who is the Dwarf and/or is equipped with the Tool Kit and is standing adjacent to a treasure chest in a room that does not contain any monsters may as an action attempt to disable the lock on the chest and loot (pick up) the contents.

14.11 Disabling a lock on a Treasure Chest
To disable a lock on a chest, roll a standard die (if the player character is a Dwarf AND has the Tool Kit then add one to the total) if the score is four or more then you have successfully disabled the lock and can access the treasure (if the chest is trapped then you have disarmed the trap), otherwise you have forced open the chest, and if trapped, then you have triggered the trap. Either way you get the contents.

Examples

Example 1

2021-07-17 WDD6 example.png

The elf enters the room and declares they are searching. They roll

They do not roll a so no wandering monsters appear.
Zargon tells them they have found two traps, and indicates the positions of two traps of their choice on the board. Note there are three traps in the room, therefore one trap is undiscovered, but the elf doesn't know if there are more traps, or any undiscovered treasure = tension! This adds the false negative scenario that the original rules are missing in my opinion. Should another hero enter the room and also search for traps, risking a WM appearing?

Say they roll The map has three traps shown and no quest treasure in the notes. Zargon is obligated to show four "finds" to the Elf, so they must show the location of the three traps, and inform the Elf they should draw a Treasure Card. If there was some Quest Treasure in the shelf, they would not draw a Treasure Card.

You can imagine rolling a would be quite nerve-wracking; only finding one trap, leaving the possibility of more! In that case, it is up to Zargon which traps they show, or whether they tell them to draw a Treasure Card. In this case, another Hero might want to give the room another search, as the Elf would state "Sorry guys, haven't found much here!"

Another option is for Zargon to roll the WD+D6 behind the monster screen...

Example 2

Screenshot 2021-07-17 215513 WDD6 search example 3.png

The elf enters the room and searches for treasure. They roll . Oh no!
Not only do they not find any treasure, but a wandering monster appears adjacent to the door and can move/attack normally. Note the monster does not need to attack heroes in the room; they can move and attack the Dwarf too, who is not in the room! My own homebrew uses the "tackle zone" idea from Blood Bowl/AHQ (ie you can't just walk past someone through their 8 adjacent squares), so in this case the Orc can walk around the edge of the room and attack the Wizard!

This makes the Wizard more vulnerable to wandering monsters, but this vulnerability can be avoided by positioning the heroes carefully and spread out to protect him/her even when there are no monsters present - something they would do in reality! None of this casual walking around a dungeon...

Example 3

Screenshot 2021-07-17 213206 WDD6 searching example 3.png

The Barbarian enters the room, and searches for traps. They roll
They do not roll a so no WMs appear.
The Barbarian only has 2MP, so only the lower two traps are shown; the pit trap next to the cupboard is NOT revealed as that is more than 2 squares away.
The Elf, who forgets the Barbarian isn't good at searching, walks towards the cupboard and sets off the trap! Oh no!

Effects of this mechanic

Basically the Quest is a little harder more thought needs to be given to searching, and there more tension:

WMs can appear even when searching for traps / secret doors in addition to Treasure
These WMs can move and attack any hero
Hero placement prior to searching becomes relevant to be able to find traps effectively (ie overlapping search radii) and to protect the weakest character
Some heroes are better at searching than others
False negatives are introduced (ie the heroes are sometimes unsure if they have found all the traps if the D6 roll was low), which adds tension
Mind points become more relevant
Heroes are differentiated more through how good/bad they become at searching
These decisions make the game more fun and seaching a bit strategic
All this from only one roll! For added spice, this roll could be done behind Zargon's screen. Imagine only one trap was revealed; does this mean there was only one trap on the quest map, or that the D6 roll was a 1?

Thoughts?

[iKarith]

Interesting. Is your goal with this mechanic to simply increase difficulty or are you trying to combat the tendency of experienced players to avoid searching except in places where they know treasure is likely to be?

This seems to speed up the part of the game where you're wandering around looking for doors, traps, and loot at the consequence of fighting more monsters.

[Stig]

Yes to increase difficulty; I outlined it at the end of my post. In addition:

Get players thinking about their positioning in the room/corridor when searching

Adding anxiety if the D6 roll is low, forcing them into a trade-off of searching again to find more traps vs likelihood of a WM appearing

I disliked how only treasure searches would risk WMs and not others

I wasn’t a huge fan of heroes just entering a room and telling Zargon that they were searching for X, the pieces and board lost significance

There is now a disincentive to lead with the Barbarian when moving along a corridor

I should also add some torch rules from the other topics linked in the post - a torch also doubles search radius

I don’t think these rules help with heroes searching only where they know treasure will be. Do they? I’ve never experienced that to be a problem

[Stig]

This seems to speed up the part of the game where you're wandering around looking for doors, traps, and loot at the consequence of fighting more monsters.

Perhaps, I haven’t playtested this but the disincentive of searching everything meticulously should hopefully stop players forensically going through every room. That did grate on me; the sequence of every room was:

1) Eliminate monsters

Then without thought for positioning or strategy the heroes declare:

2) Search for traps & secret doors
3) Search for treasure

So the Search is completed instantly without thinking. I’m basically trying to make a game of this aspect of HQ as opposed to it being a simple verbal declaration.

[iKarith]

It's worse with US rules. You have to search for traps, then you have to search for secret doors, then you search for treasures. It's a formulaic slog. And honestly, with an Evil Wizard deck, if you're stocked on healing items, you don't stop for traps because the threat of standing around with no monsters to fight while you do all three things is too high. Best move on as quick as you may.

[Stig]

Totally understand the “formulaic slog” part - but fundamentally that’s what the whole game is; dice and probabilities. My thoughts were to make this part more enjoyable by giving the heroes something to really think about, ie an enjoyable formulaic slog!

[Stig]

So I’ve been playing this for a year and a half, and have got to nearly the end of KK. It’s worked out much better than expected:

The players find it simple and intuitive
Heroes don’t over search
Wandering monsters jump out just often enough
Heroes care about mind points
Makes the players think, but not too much
Leaves a lot of tension with undiscovered traps, making the players squirm!

Will defo continue playing this way!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Stig,

First let me recap and make sure that I fully understand your proposed mods and their aims and then after that I’ll mentally play test it (not a substitute for real play testing but a lot quicker and needs less resources) and let you know any gaps, assumptions, or potential for misinterpretation that I find.

I’m probably stating the obvious (as usual), but when I hear that people have play tested their own rule mods, which is good news (better than if they haven’t!), but I take that with a pinch of salt. That isn’t intended as a criticism, as it is as true for me as anyone else. When you play test your own rule mods, you actually play test the version that is in your head, even if you document it first, and that version is probably different, more complete, any gaps filled with your own assumptions that may not have been documented, and it isn’t likely that you have misinterpreted your own rule mods. When you document that and hand it over to others to play test, then they are play testing the documented rule mods, as opposed to the version in your head, that leads to them, consciously or not, to plug any gaps with their own assumptions that may well be different from yours, and potentially to mis-interpret what you have presented leading to results and conclusions based on a different rule set than you intended, so I would always advise sharing potential rule mods with others (on this forum of course) sooner rather than later!

Perceived Problems with the Standard Rules (the Aims/Goals being to fix or at least mitigate these)

Note: By ‘standard rules’ I’m assuming US Edition although HQ2021 isn’t any different is this regard as far as I am aware.

1. Searching as per the standard rules is too easy/lacks tension because you are always guaranteed to find every trap and secret door within the search area

2. Searching as per the standard rules lacks thought or tactical options as the search area is pre-defined and not based on the searchers starting position

3. All Heroes are the same when it comes to searching under the standard rules, which misses out on an opportunity for Hero differentiation, lacks tactical options around who searches and who leads the party which could be added by differentiation between Heroes

4. Wandering Monsters can only appear during a ‘search for treasure’ and not the other two search actions which is inconsistent
Note: Change to Wandering Monster rule around placement and what they can do once placed I’ve ignored for the moment, not because it is a good or bad idea, I just think that rule is separate from the search proposal in that it could be introduced with or without the rest of the rule mods so I’ll think about and cover that separately

5. In the standard rules Mind Points are under-utilised

Your Proposed Process

Retain three distinct search actions from US Edition – Treasure, Traps and Secret Doors – so based on this I’ll cover each in turn individually although it does appear that the approach to all three is consistent and common which is a good start!

Search for Treasure

1. Declare action of ‘search for treasure’

a) Can this be done if you are in a room, or a corridor assume room only as per standard rules?
b) Can you search an area that has partially or completely searched already by another Hero (assume from your examples that you can)
c) Can you search an area that has been partially or completely searched by yourself,
d) Does the GM need to record areas that have been searched, who by, and the type of search, if so, how?
e) Do standard rules apply in terms of not being able to do this search if monsters are in the same room/corridor or ‘visible’?

2. roll

If then as per Wandering Monster card (subject to my note above about WM handling), WM placed, so no treasure found.

On anything other than a they find the number of treasures indicated by the D6, up to the number indicated by the quest notes, i.e., if the D6 roll is a 4 but there are only 2 treasures in the room, Zargon reveals just the 2. If there is no treasure indicated in the quests notes for a room, the heroes draw a Treasure Card as normal

Chests are excluded from the search for treasure and are handled separately though a new LOOT action (I think I have a more recent version of these rules but let me double check and post back later), other furniture is included in the search

There seems to be (and this may be my misunderstanding) two distinct limits on search area in play,

i) the standard rules limit your search area to the room, if you are in a room, or a corridor if you are in a corridor*

*Standard rules are a little vague around whether a corridor is the entire straight section that you are in, or only the part of that in a particular direction of your choice, and also is unclear on how you handle search declarations from a Hero on an intersection between two corridors, do they get to search both simultaneously or choose between the two. Whilst this lack of clarity is within the standard rules not your mod it would be helpful if you could clarify how this works in your mod

ii) search is limited by the search radius, which is limited to the hero's current MPs so 1-6 squares (typically) “radius”

a) I’m not sure whether your mod intentionally has both, and if so, which takes precedence, if I am the Barbarian in the central room and I declare a search, does it only cover the 2 squares around me? Radius applies circle but the board is a grid, in the example above of 2 square radius what is the coverage

b) Does this include or exclude the square that I am currently on?

c) Does this extend only to squares that I could reach in 2 squares of movement, which is 12 squares in total (13 if it includes the one I am currently on) or include squares that are diagonally two squares away so 16 in total (17 if it includes the one that I am currently on?)

d) If I am the Dwarf in a small room 2x3 so 6 square area but my search “radius” is 6 then am I limited by the size of the room, or can my search go beyond the limits or the room and cover areas outside the room, does it matter whether they have already been revealed or not, does it matter whether they are rooms or corridors themselves?

e) Equally if I am searching in a corridor and my search radius covers another room or corridor is that also covered by the search?

Search for Traps

1. Declare action of ‘search for traps’
a) assume this can be done if you are in a room or corridor as per standard rules,
b) can you search an area that has partially or completely searched already by another Hero
c) can you search an area that has been partially or completely searched by yourself,
d) does the GM need to record areas that have been searched, who by, and the type of search, if so, how?
e) Do standard rules apply in terms of not being able to do this search if monsters are in the same room/corridor or ‘visible’?

2. roll

If then as per Wandering Monster card (subject to my note above about WM handling), WM placed, does this mean that no traps are found (assuming that there are some to find).

On anything other than a they find the number of traps indicated by the D6, up to the number indicated by the quest notes, i.e. if the D6 roll is a 4 but there are only 2 traps in the room, Zargon reveals just the 2.

a) Are chests, trapped chests, covered as part of this search?
b) Do you want/need any mechanism to record the location of found unsprung traps
c) Do you want/need any mechanism to record the type of found unspring traps
d) Assume standard rules apply when dealing with unsprung traps – jump, disarm and so on

Same search Radius / Area questions as above.

Secret Doors

1. Declare action of ‘search for secret doors’
a) assume this can be done if you are in a room or a corridor as per standard rules
b) can you search an area that has partially or completely searched already by another Hero
c) can you search an area that has been partially or completely searched by yourself
d) does the GM need to record areas that have been searched, who by, and the type of search, if so, how?
e) Do standard rules apply in terms of not being able to do this search if monsters are in the same room/corridor or ‘visible’?

2. roll

If then as per Wandering Monster card (subject to my note above about WM handling), WM placed, so no secret doors found (assuming there are any to be found).

On anything other than a they find the number of secret doors indicated by the D6, up to the number indicated by the quest notes, i.e., if the D6 roll is a 4 but there are only 2 secret doors in the room, Zargon reveals just the 2.

Same search Radius / Area questions as above.

[Stig]

Thanks for the extensive read through. You're spot on that I'm playtesting the rules in my head and not those as written - hence my edit of the first post - thanks! This is a COMBINED search action.

When you play test your own rule mods, you actually play test the version that is in your head, even if you document it first, and that version is probably different, more complete, any gaps filled with your own assumptions that may not have been documented, and it isn’t likely that you have misinterpreted your own rule mods. When you document that and hand it over to others to play test, then they are play testing the documented rule mods, as opposed to the version in your head

That's right!

Perceived Problems with the Standard Rules (the Aims/Goals being to fix or at least mitigate these)

Note: By ‘standard rules’ I’m assuming US Edition although HQ2021 isn’t any different is this regard as far as I am aware.

1. Searching as per the standard rules is too easy/lacks tension because you are always guaranteed to find every trap and secret door within the search area

Not so here - the main goal of the D6 is to deal with the problem. Say you roll a 1 - the next question is "is there likely to be only one trap in this room, or might have I missed something?"

2. Searching as per the standard rules lacks thought or tactical options as the search area is pre-defined and not based on the searchers starting position

Here tactics and positioning come into play, through the search distance being the Heroes' current MP. The positioning is important, as positioning the Heroes badly could result in the Wandering Monster walking towards the Wizard and engaging them in Combat.

3. All Heroes are the same when it comes to searching under the standard rules, which misses out on an opportunity for Hero differentiation, lacks tactical options around who searches and who leads the party which could be added by differentiation between Heroes

This mitigates this through
-the MP radiius
-Flexibility for Zargon in placing the wandering monsters, eg just coming down the corridor: The WM doesn't need to appear next to the Searching Hero, they just appear from any line of sight from the Searching Hero, including coming down the corridior towards the sound created by the loud search.
-The use of the AHQ death zones idea, where figures can't move through enemy death zones, encouraging heroes to protect those more vulnerable

4. Wandering Monsters can only appear during a ‘search for treasure’ and not the other two search actions which is inconsistent
Note: Change to Wandering Monster rule around placement and what they can do once placed I’ve ignored for the moment, not because it is a good or bad idea, I just think that rule is separate from the search proposal in that it could be introduced with or without the rest of the rule mods so I’ll think about and cover that separately

Here they can appear with all searches through rolling a

5. In the standard rules Mind Points are under-utilised

They are used here. One unforseen benefit of this rule mod I found was that when it made sense for the Barbarian to search (if all the other heroes had used their actions for example) he needed to tiptoe into the middle of the room to cover as many squares as possible with his meagre 2MP radius. This resulted in the clumsy barbarian inadvertently triggering more traps than others; just what you'd expect a Barbarian to do!

Your Proposed Process

Retain three distinct search actions from US Edition – Treasure, Traps and Secret Doors – so based on this I’ll cover each in turn individually although it does appear that the approach to all three is consistent and common which is a good start!

Reading my original post back, what I said near the top was very unclear, hence the edit to include the word "COMBINED" in block capitals at the top!

Search for Treasure

1. Declare action of ‘search for treasure’

a) Can this be done if you are in a room, or a corridor assume room only as per standard rules?

The combined WD+D6 search action can be in either a room or corridor. You'd expect to find more treasure in rooms though! What I've found is that heroes are more keen to search rooms for this reason, and are happier to risk not searching a corridor.

b) Can you search an area that has partially or completely searched already by another Hero (assume from your examples that you can)

Yes you can, and this is the intention - if you rolled a 2 on the D6 and found two traps; might there be more that were undiscovered? This system encourages more searching, and more Wandering Monsters jump out!

c) Can you search an area that has been partially or completely searched by yourself,

Yes - same reasoning as above

d) Does the GM need to record areas that have been searched, who by, and the type of search, if so, how?

In theory this might make sense, especially if heroes only found have the traps in a room and somehow avoided the others, then decide to head back; but with 3 quests left of KK that situation hasn't even come close.

e) Do standard rules apply in terms of not being able to do this search if monsters are in the same room/corridor or ‘visible’?

Yes, but I imagine it could be played with any of the variants for this, eg searching could happen if all visible monsters are in combat for example.

2. roll

If then as per Wandering Monster card (subject to my note above about WM handling), WM placed, so no treasure found.

On anything other than a they find the number of treasures indicated by the D6, up to the number indicated by the quest notes, i.e., if the D6 roll is a 4 but there are only 2 treasures in the room, Zargon reveals just the 2. If there is no treasure indicated in the quests notes for a room, the heroes draw a Treasure Card as normal

Yes, but due to miscommunication, it's treasures+secret doors+traps, this is a combined search.

Chests are excluded from the search for treasure and are handled separately though a new LOOT action (I think I have a more recent version of these rules but let me double check and post back later), other furniture is included in the search

Yes

There seems to be (and this may be my misunderstanding) two distinct limits on search area in play,

i) the standard rules limit your search area to the room, if you are in a room, or a corridor if you are in a corridor*

*Standard rules are a little vague around whether a corridor is the entire straight section that you are in, or only the part of that in a particular direction of your choice, and also is unclear on how you handle search declarations from a Hero on an intersection between two corridors, do they get to search both simultaneously or choose between the two. Whilst this lack of clarity is within the standard rules not your mod it would be helpful if you could clarify how this works in your mod

Well spotted. Any thoughts as to what works best? I'm picturing a radius of MP squares in a corridor that could radiate in both directions, but not span into any rooms.

ii) search is limited by the search radius, which is limited to the hero's current MPs so 1-6 squares (typically) “radius”

Yes apart from the Dwarf, who has a special ability where his search radius is double his MP.

a) I’m not sure whether your mod intentionally has both, and if so, which takes precedence, if I am the Barbarian in the central room and I declare a search, does it only cover the 2 squares around me? Radius applies circle but the board is a grid, in the example above of 2 square radius what is the coverage

Avoiding the word "radius", we could say "within two squares of the barbarian". What I mean in the example below, having 4MP would allow you to search the white area; whereas having 5MP would allow you to search the white and red

grid.png

b) Does this include or exclude the square that I am currently on?

No

c) Does this extend only to squares that I could reach in 2 squares of movement, which is 12 squares in total (13 if it includes the one I am currently on) or include squares that are diagonally two squares away so 16 in total (17 if it includes the one that I am currently on?)

Not sure I understand this, but I just mean "2 squares" if your current MP is 2. If your MP is 5, you can search within 5 squares. I don't understand where 12/13 squares comes from, that's a huge range. One thing I like about doing it this way it avoids the weird "teleportation" searches where Heroes find traps at opposite ends of huge, dark corridors.

d) If I am the Dwarf in a small room 2x3 so 6 square area but my search “radius” is 6 then am I limited by the size of the room, or can my search go beyond the limits or the room and cover areas outside the room, does it matter whether they have already been revealed or not, does it matter whether they are rooms or corridors themselves?

In this situation, the way I've played it (but not specifically stated in writing) is the Dwarf would only Search the room they are in. The extra search range is wasted. I think it would get too complicated/messy. I certainly wouldn't allow the dwarf to search through an unopened door. This could easily be clarified in the rules by saying something along the lines of "doors can only be opened by a move action", ie excluding the Search action from opening doors.

e) Equally if I am searching in a corridor and my search radius covers another room or corridor is that also covered by the search?

As stated above, no.

Search for Traps

1. Declare action of ‘search for traps’
a) assume this can be done if you are in a room or corridor as per standard rules,
b) can you search an area that has partially or completely searched already by another Hero
c) can you search an area that has been partially or completely searched by yourself,
d) does the GM need to record areas that have been searched, who by, and the type of search, if so, how?
e) Do standard rules apply in terms of not being able to do this search if monsters are in the same room/corridor or ‘visible’?

Same answers as above :

-Search is room OR corridor
-Same area area can (and often should!) be searched twice. One nice thing about this is the tradeoff - the likelihood of finding a WM is written clearly in the rules, but the likelihood of there being undiscovered traps isn't statistically clear; it relies on "gut instinct" the players have about the Dungeon, which makes them try to tap into a "feeling". Games which require you to close your eyes and "feel" something are always huge fun.
-GM hasn't needed to record any search results
-Presence of Monsters intended as per standard rules, but can work with any mods I imagine.

2. roll

If then as per Wandering Monster card (subject to my note above about WM handling), WM placed, does this mean that no traps are found (assuming that there are some to find).

Yes, no traps found.

On anything other than a they find the number of traps indicated by the D6, up to the number indicated by the quest notes, i.e. if the D6 roll is a 4 but there are only 2 traps in the room, Zargon reveals just the 2.

a) Are chests, trapped chests, covered as part of this search?

No. Chests are separate

b) Do you want/need any mechanism to record the location of found unsprung traps

Haven't needed any so far, but haven't played Vengance for Vengance yet!

c) Do you want/need any mechanism to record the type of found unspring traps

No

d) Assume standard rules apply when dealing with unsprung traps – jump, disarm and so on

Yes

Same search Radius / Area questions as above.

Secret Doors

1. Declare action of ‘search for secret doors’
a) assume this can be done if you are in a room or a corridor as per standard rules
b) can you search an area that has partially or completely searched already by another Hero
c) can you search an area that has been partially or completely searched by yourself
d) does the GM need to record areas that have been searched, who by, and the type of search, if so, how?
e) Do standard rules apply in terms of not being able to do this search if monsters are in the same room/corridor or ‘visible’?

All answered above.

2. roll

If then as per Wandering Monster card (subject to my note above about WM handling), WM placed, so no secret doors found (assuming there are any to be found).

On anything other than a they find the number of secret doors indicated by the D6, up to the number indicated by the quest notes, i.e., if the D6 roll is a 4 but there are only 2 secret doors in the room, Zargon reveals just the 2.

Same search Radius / Area questions as above.

Answered above - it's a combined search

[Stig]

As mentioned, I was playing it differently as per the first post, so edited for clarity