Should I bring the D20 into HeroQuest ?

[Azure]

Hello fellow adventurers, I am currently wondering if the popularity of HeroQuest is declining, staying steady, or rising up in connection with the new HeroQuest 2020 reprint from Hasbro/Avalon Hill.

I have recently been looking for players on various Discord channels, as my group of players kinda disbanded in the last 6 months after 3 full campaigns.
We completed so many adventures and stayed together during a bit more than one full year.

Considering the importance of the Dungeon Crawler games into the world of medieval fantasty...considering that HeroQuest is an old game...considering that new players a kinda hard to find...
and also, considering that the entire setup of HeroQuest is a bit ''childish''....

I am now wondering if I should bring the D20 into HeroQuest in order to make the game more similar to DnD 5th Edition (FOR COMBAT PURPOSES ONLY!!).
Let me explain.

I would use 5 attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Vigor, and Mind). Each of these attributes could be augmented in a similar fashion to Advanced HeroQuest : train your hero with
gold, or kill enough monsters to gain a ''skill point'' and invest it into one of your stats.

GENERAL RULES RE-SHAPED

The d20 would imply that we would roll it for Accuracy, Evasion, Mental Control, Magic Control, CounterAttack, Tests of Constitution, Tests of Agility and so on.
The Hit Points count would easily be 8 for a Wizard or a Witch, it would be 10 for a Cleric, it would be 12 for Thief or Rogue and Ranger, and 13 for a Fighter, and around 15 for a Barbarian.
The damage would also use d6, d8, d10, d12 and also bonuses from magical enchantments. ( +1, +2, +3 ) (or penalties -1, -2, -3)
The HP of all heroes would NEVER increase, no matter what, except when somebody discovers a ring or amulet, or special item.
The damage for spells could be as follows : low level Fire spell (Fire of Wrath) = 1d6, and higher level Fire spell (Ball of Flame) = 2d6, super strong level Fire spell + Area of effect (Firestorm) = 3d6 damage
The healing spells could now be transformed as follows : Partial healing recovers + 4 HP to your life, Healing Aura would heal 3 HP to all heroes, and stronger healing would heal + 7 HP to your health.
A Chain Lightning spell could do 1d6 damage to all enemies present in the same room in line of sight.

THINGS THAT BECOME POSSIBLE WITH THIS SETTING :
- So now, with this medium numbers available for HP (Body points that go up to 15), elemental resistances become truly relevant.
- Now a flail could do an automatic + 3 damage to skeletons, zombies, and mummies on a successful hit.
- Now, a poison dagger can do an automatic +3 damage to all living creatures.
- A magical shield could protect you against Fire spells and cut down the damage by half + gain additional defense against projectiles since this is a shield.
- Every 2 points of Agility, your movement grows by 1 square and you could increase your AC by 1 for both melee and projectiles.
- A stone golem could negate 3 points of damage for any attack made with other weapons than a blunt weapon.
- An archer can start losing accuracy and damage if the arrow he shoots is more than 12 squares away.
- An enemy with a harder skin could take -2 damage from any type of weapons.

These are all examples of things that become possible when I reshape the stats and damage scalability. My goal is not to make heroes like big bags of hit points, but rather provide a new type of experience
within the world of HeroQuest Dungeon Crawling adventures.

Tell me what you think. Do I go too far ? Is it necessary ? Or would you say ''Man, whatever floats your boat''.

Please comment below. Thank you very much.

[Kurgan]

I have the big bag of fancy dice, but I haven't really used them much (got them originally for some game books, speculated about using them for start-up equipment draws but went with cards instead). I can count the number of times I've played D&D (in any form) on the fingers of one hand, while to others that's heresy and that's their default game, I understand.

I'm not sure "childish" is the right word to describe HeroQuest. I prefer "simpler" or "more accessible." Who doesn't like using fancy dice? These are just different games (now all owned by the same company), but they're open-ended enough that you can do all sorts of things to make it more complicated (or even simpler) if you want to. Stuff from one game gets ported easily into the other and vice versa. So the answer for me is:

Man, whatever floats your boat.

[cornixt]

I think you are going well beyond what HQ is. A lot of what you describe could be done by adding additional combat dice or defense dice, or rerolling failures.
I get what you are trying to do, since HQ is a far too light for most boardgamers, but I would figure out how to use the existing dice for the new features rather than replacing them with a D20. 3/20 is so close to 1/6 that switching to D6 rolls and adding bonuses might be better than changing everything to completely different dice.

I've played around with alternative dice configurations for the game quite a lot, and it really just feels like a different dungeon crawler if you go too far from the basic dice rolls.

[Azure]

Thank you so much for your input. Yes I can always try to follow what the other guys are doing with the colored dice. I really like ShowDown Dave's dice configuration. The only downfall is the players need to have a different ''handful'' of dice for both attack and defense. Some players can enjoy it, while other will become confused by it.

Anyhow, one of my main fears is that games like GloomHaven and Descent : Legends of the Dark become so popular that the player base of HeroQuest goes diminishing. Hence why I am trying to create a pure dungeon crawler out of some 5E mechanics. Otherwise, I could easily try to play 4 Against Darkness or 5 Torches Deep - - - but here is the quirk :: these 2 indie games are so indie, that it becomes impossible to find online players and play in TableTop Simulator.

Let alone all the other games I want to try as a group (Black Hack 2nd Edition, White Hack, Burning Wheel, Dungeon World) - - these fantastic games get crushed by DnD 5th E. The player base for these games is almost non-existent or the least, their presence online is extremely thin.

Whenever ** I ** want to play HeroQuest, who else wants ??

If anybody has ideas to find players for dungeon crawlers, please notify me. My Discord is Azure Megid#3461

[Kurgan]

Advanced HeroQuest uses other types of Dice, doesn't it? But like you say, different game entirely... ("not suitable to children under 14 yrs of age due to sharp points")

[Odanan]

HeroQuest could be improve by some changes:

- Adding Evil Wizard/Evil Power cards;
- Monsters with different abilities (like *group hug* bonus, diagonal attacks, attack effects, etc.);
- Larger rooms for more tactic positioning;
- Ways to mitigate the dice (re-rolls, turning the black skull into a skull or shield...);
- More "class" abilities for the heroes.

I don't think adding D20 would solve anything of the above. The simplicity of the HQ dice is fine - the problem is instead the lack of tactical decisions in the combat (for both the Heroes and the Evil Wizard).

[Kurgan]

Agreed, Odanan. The monster abilities thing at least does come up in the official quests (or quest packs). The other things are something a lot of us do implement as optional houserules.

[Azure]

HeroQuest could be improve by some changes:

- Adding Evil Wizard/Evil Power cards;
- Monsters with different abilities (like *group hug* bonus, diagonal attacks, attack effects, etc.);
- Larger rooms for more tactic positioning;
- Ways to mitigate the dice (re-rolls, turning the black skull into a skull or shield...);
- More "class" abilities for the heroes.

I don't think adding D20 would solve anything of the above. The simplicity of the HQ dice is fine - the problem is instead the lack of tactical decisions in the combat (for both the Heroes and the Evil Wizard).

Having completed 3 full campaigns with a group, I STRONGLY agree with your points and I share the same view.
Have you ever heard of HEROQUEST V2 by a dude named Gravaillon ? The gameplay videos are online and it's very impressive.

All of the points you mentioned above are actuall "Add-On custom house rules".
1 - Evil Wizard cards : His Necromancers and other spellcasters should have access to more spells.
In my mod, Zargon "collects" all the black skulls that are rolled on any hero's turn and then Zargon can magically summon monsters by using these dark energy points collected.

2- Monsters with different abilities ; what about vampiric creatures that suck the hero's blood to regenerate of 1 BP? What about a Gargoyle that has a Flamethrower Attack and can burn anything in a straight line of 6 squares and also use a whip with extended reach ? What about a Ghoul that makes you chilled and paralyzed for 1 round on a bad defense roll with a black skull ? What about a Summoner who conjures 2 Chaos Knights on his 3rd round ? What about zombies that vomit liquid pus at a distance and can reduce your maximum BP by 1 for the entire quest ?

3- Larger rooms are extremely easy to obtain, either on paper form or digital form for TableTopSimulator...so I'll skip this // HQ Modular is the next best thing.

4- Ways to mitigate the dice. Become an expert at something or magically enchant your weapons for a certain cost in town, to allow you some re-rolls and more accuracy. What if your Thief or Rogue wanted to specialize with a Bow or with throwing daggers ? What if your Paladin prefers a sword rather than his mace ? My Ranger/Rogue can re-roll if she decides to shoot her bow from afar by cancelling her movement phase. She becomes a sharpshooter and this can increase the strategy in the gameplay. Exchange a Mind Point to perform a reroll.

5 - More class Abilities ? Do you have any suggestions ? We can look at this PC/PS4 game called DarkQuest 2 where each hero class has their own set of abilities (precisely 8 abilities for each hero) and each of these talents can be improved 2 other times after being selected.

Barbarian could spend 1 BP to add 3 combat dice to a single attack.
Barbarian could also perform a Deathblow and keep slashing around him if he kills an enemy one-shot.
Barbarian could gain extra damage if he reaches below 3 BP.
Dwarf could throw an explosive that deals 2 BP of damage in a 3x3 impact zone : enemies roll for defense.
Dwarf could headbutt an enemy with his helmet if he runs from afar, pushing the enemy by 2 squares.
Elf could have access to extra Elf Magic or Forest Magic, on top of becoming better than everybody else with a bow.
Elf could also try and listen in corridors and check if he hears any monster sounds.
Wizard could re-cast his spells by spending Mind Points or by discarding another spell in his hand.


I am curious to see where this discussion is going. I like it a lot.

[Kurgan]

Odanan and Azure have many great ideas there!

More Hero abilities:

Combat Cards (for pure combat characters, 2 each at regular level, 3 at Knight level with 10-14 quests completed; bonus: third time you roll doubles in a quest, draw one more)

Zargon abilities:

Evil Wizard Cards, with extras (Monster Shield to trade lackey damage meant for a designated leader bad guy; blue dice for a designated bad guy until quest end meaning defend like a Hero)

I like the idea of earning points from good guys rolling black shields.

Elf/Wizard can draw a potion from first search on an unmarked Alchemist bench room. A spell scroll on the same for a Sorcerer's Table (if no spells used, otherwise recharge one spell of their choice instead of drawing a card)

Unmarked weapons rack - may be used for a random Equipment card draw instead of a treasure card.

Parley option for Heroes (lone monster card - a slightly more dangerous but interesting secondary treasure deck)

Full plug for my personal upgrade system by hero, based on quests completed here.

[Azure]

Combat techniques for melee heroes : I will take inspiration from DarkQuest2 and the skill cards from Advanced HeroQuest. To me, a barbarian that can cleave all adjacent enemies or perform a shield-breaking attack on an orc all makes sense. An archer who can re-roll his shot makes sense. A thief that performs a backstab, or walks silently behind/past a monster seems smart. Melee heroes should have more diversity in their skills in order to increase the variety of battle tactics. Completing quests before accessing more combat cards is very relevant because you feel like you gain an arsenal of tools to fight monsters, while not changing into a big bag of Body Points. Your character gets more interesting and better, while still being at risk of dying in combat.

Mitigating the dice rolls : I will implement the masteries inside the combat cards. If you want to feel more skillful and increase your chances of success, keep the weapon advancement in your combat/skill cards, so each of them allow for a re-roll during battle. You can then ''spend'' these ''important'' re-rolls in a strategic way during combat. Kind of a lucky shot but you can pretend your hero practiced his favorite weapon in his/her down time.

Also, let's say I attack a skeleton with a sword or a bow, they roll normal defense...but if I attack them with a hammer or mace, or flail = the skeleton has to roll defense twice and obtains the worst result because of my smashing weapon. (Blunt weapon damaging the bones way better). So on a Minotaur, a Giant, a Treant or a Troll, an Axe or Battle Axe would be more efficient, forcing the enemy to roll def 2X and stick with the worse result. By default, the sword will remain very useful in 70% to 80 % of situations. So either I add 1 extra combat die, or I force a bad re-roll on the enemies for certain weapons.

I could add for example, a Rock Golem who defends way better against blades and arrows, but is forced to pick the worse defense roll VS a Hammer or Fire magic or explosive grenades. Water enemies (Nagas, Serpents, Mermen) would receive additional damage from Lightning Magic. And a Fire-based enemy would easily disregard any Fire damage, could suffer normal damage VS a Lightning attack, and will suffer extra damage VS an Ice spell.

So overall, my ideas make this HeroQuest as if it would still run as ''HeroQuest'' but the new face-lift would easily be considered a brand new game.