Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

[Davane]

As a queer woman I can tell you that if you do not understand why there needs to be a diversity push in gaming then you have no clue.

We can't even play with our own in-groups at the local gaming store for christ sakes!!!

If we do we get hovered by pervs or somehow even worse there is the guy who wants to gainsay our DM on everything, make snarky comments about our game world lore and make a stink anytime we say or do something that doesn't fit in the game shop as far as he is concerned

then there is the dude who wants to just watch and he wasn't talking about the game.......

No!

Men need to clean up their act and not turn the game/game store into a locker room.

If you can't handle a little diversity training bleeding over into gaming then I have no pity for you. Go ahead and feel uncomfortable and out of place in a group you should be feeling safe. You should have to share that feeling with us if that is how it is going to be.

See this attitude right here is what drove me away from Ye Old Inn years ago. Bunch of macho bullshit

Who, exactly, do you think I am? Come on. I've revealed a few bits about my identity here and there, but go ahead - take a guess about my identity. I look forward to your responses.

Because you don't even seem to get what the normative identity is. The normative identity is a stereotype - a baseline, default identity, that can be used in absence of any other information. It's what people assume about others, because not everyone goes around saying "As a queer woman..."

Is being a queer woman in any way related to your identity as a gamer? Are you a gamer because you are a queer woman? Are you a queer woman because you are a gamer? I'm not asking if being a queer woman is important to your identity - I assume it is, because all aspects of our identities are important to us. That's why we identify with them.

When you talk about a diversity push, what exactly do you mean, and where exactly do you think that push is needed? Are you talking about forcing more queer women to be gamers? Are you talking about forcing more queer female characters in games? What exactly are you talking about and pushing for?

As I said before, in a community as diverse as gaming, and I don't just mean video gaming, you are going to get sexism and homophobia. But you can't define the whole gaming community as sexist or homophobic, because of part of the community. That would be as absurd as saying that the entire gaming community must only consist of heterosexual, white, male teens. The last time checked, whilst sexuality, ethnicity, gender, and age are important aspects of an individual's identity, none of these are vitally important parts of being a gamer of any kind.

[Davane]

hear, here!!!

Evil is by deeds not birth.

My game word has room for unique situations, odd characters and the occasional Lore Defying person.

Hell maybe Mentor thinks it is funny to turn an Orc into a Bard good guy on his days off. "Oh the last orc bard died....lol yeah I got another one just to piss off Zargon. Turn his own minions against him. Serve him his own medicine."

So, you favour subjective Evil over objective Evil. That's a perfectly valid choice.

However, games of good vs. evil often revolve around objective good and evil. In the Warhammer World, Orcs are objectively evil. It's very much a case of Evil is by birth. The very premise of HQ is based on this concept. It's going to be jarring just to toss it aside, for the sake of one character that doesn't even have a backstory yet.

The Orc Bard isn't lore defying - there's nothing being shown that the Orc Bard is actively defying anything, because of a lack of backstory. In fact, if Orcs aren't normally Evil, what is there for an Orc Bard to defy, exactly?

It is a case of Evil by birth in any setting involving Objective Evil. That's what makes it Objective Evil in the first place.

It's interesting to note that it's entirely possible to have both objective and subjective evil in a setting. In many settings, the sheer diversity of the human race in terms of alignment makes them objectively neutral, but subjectively, they can be any alignment they want, and this flexibility will often be what can tip the balance in the conflict of Good vs. Evil one way or the other.

It's certainly going to take a LOT of explaining to see how an Orc, who's not only inherently destructive, violent, and warlike, with a predisposition towards favouring strength over intelligence, would suddenly give all that up and become a Hero. I hope Teos can do it justice, because everything used to describe the Orc Bard is typically associated with Elves, which is like the polar opposite of what's typical for Orcs.

I know Good vs. Evil, especially objective Good vs. Evil is somewhat simplistic, but HQ is a simple game, and that's a big part of it's charm. I don't know many HQ players that want to go into EVERY dungeon and have to ask themselves if they should be killing THESE Orcs or not...

[Cael Darkhollow]

hear, here!!!

Evil is by deeds not birth.

My game word has room for unique situations, odd characters and the occasional Lore Defying person.

Hell maybe Mentor thinks it is funny to turn an Orc into a Bard good guy on his days off. "Oh the last orc bard died....lol yeah I got another one just to piss off Zargon. Turn his own minions against him. Serve him his own medicine."

so by your "deeds" logic adventurers entering dungeons and killing monsters and taking their gold and items is inherently evil? They literally are invading the poor monsters homes , killing them and taking their stuff.

Methinks you are completely missing the point of a dungeon crawler game; it is basic good versus evil treasure seeking monster slaying not a political correctness powder keg of injustice and oppression against whomever you feel is slighted.

Do you politely knock on the door and humbly ask the orcs their intentions trying to make friends or do you immediately attack them then loot the room? Why are you even playing HeroQuest if it isn't the latter?

[cynthialee]

I think you perhaps are incapable of seeing that yes indeed the heroes are actually evil to the monsters

pretty much the only righteous dungeons are the ones where the heroes go to destroy undead and the ones where you must rescue the helpless, going into a lair of orcs for the soul purpose of killing and looting is evil

I think there should be critical thought put into gaming and wrestling with the moral implications can and should be part of the game

I know that every story I tell at the game table offers the heroes the chance to be the force of morality ... and sometimes that is a thing that will change the quest objective mid mission
maybe Mentor and the Emperor are occasionally the evil party, the real fun complication is what you gonna do about it?

I need more from my fantasy than sitting back and accepting a false fantasy that says my side is never evil and the other guys are always bad. Just lazy. Lazy lazy lazy.

[Kurgan]

I'm happy to play with anybody. When it comes to HeroQuest, I only care what you rolled, where you moved, or what card(s) you played! We're all human beings with complex lives and we don't have to air out and resolve everything when we're just trying to play a game.

Want a "black and white world" ? You can do that, easily. Want to make it more "gray" and gritty? You can do that too. Nothing stopping you! I like both ideas... that the Orcs are inherently evil killing machines that can be wiped out with no moral qualms in this game. I also love the idea that they're merely pawns in the game, who have the opportunity to break free, who could be great and even heroic if only they were given the chance. I find the idea of the Bard silly, but I can see how it could be made to work also.

HeroQuest is a great game because it is so moddable, and that's why we love it! I'm glad that this isn't being threatened with the new release. I like having female monsters and female heroes. We could always do that before, we just had to use more imagination than now (and you can still use it in reverse if you wish). It's all what your gaming group decides to do.

I can think of all sorts of things a person COULD put in their adventure that I'd find off-putting, that I wouldn't want to play. If that were to happen I'd politely bow out, since I'm a guest at somebody else's gaming table. I may try to work it out with my friends if I think it's important, but generally speaking when it comes to politics, religion, etc. I can agree to disagree. We're cool, so nobody is going to fight me over it.

There are people here, right now who are afraid for this community, that we're going to "split" over this Remake. That could happen, but I don't think it has to. For all the complaining I (and others) do about developments in other franchises, in Hero Quest, we've really come off pretty lucky.

So if somebody here wants to make a campaign where the Orcs are misunderstood heroes, GO FOR IT. If there's a canon scenario about that, and you don't like it you don't have to accept it.

I'm an NA version player. But I love the Japanese game system and I love the EU versions. And yet when I play I only accept CERTAIN THINGS from those versions in my modified game.

For example: I love the Holy Flame, and the fantastic set of quests from the Japanese version, along with the new artifacts and the expanded geography of the world. But I don't like gambling for body points (though it would be interesting to try once). The levels of magic is an interesting mechanic. The suggestion of the Evil Wizard ("Demon King") purposely throwing the fight but ensuring the Heroes have a good time while only pretending to kill them is actually a good way to GM for a lot of gaming groups (but certainly not the only way).

From the EU editions, I like the idea of searching passages for Treasure and looking through doorways. I love the unique Expansions (and cool miniatures). I like missing Artwork and the Equipment cards (but I also love the Armory board). But I don't like the idea that Sir Ragnar was a traitor who was executed. I don't like the idea that Mentor is the guy on the game screen. But when I'm playing with a GM who thinks those things, I'll let it go for the sake of that game. Those things can be done in a compelling way, so if someone put the challenge to me "make this fit into your game" I would give it a try. Maybe you're different.

Maybe you grew up with that being your image of Mentor and you love the idea of Sir Ragnar's fate. Who am I to judge? If our roles were reversed, I might feel the same way. I don't have a problem with both "versions" existing and being just as official as the other. So the same thing goes for any odd creative decisions in the new remake. It can't "erase" the previous versions.

In the end, the beauty is that we all have the freedom. So if somebody says you have to have "good Orcs" (or mushroom Orcs) now... nobody is forcing you to do it. 100 years from now somebody might come up with a "brilliant" Hero Quest idea, that HQ fans might think is stupid, but they'll still have the freedom to say "thanks but no thanks" and just create their own adventures and mods like always.

Can this community survive? Sure! We all have a few misgivings, a few disagreements, a few "doubts or fears" over a game we love. I wouldn't let it bother you. I plan to mod a few cards right off the bat, but some I'll just have to wait a year to see if I think it needs improving or not. I'm going to relax until then. Let's not fight each other about something that Hasbro did, didn't do, or might do (or not do).

I think the best thing is to send them the emails and give your constructive criticism. That will do more to convey those feelings to the people who can do something about it, than anything, officially. The rest is just fans who are part of this wonderful community talking. If you can't convince anyone to accept your house rules or parchment text, don't worry, as long as the four people at your gaming table (or virtual game session) can agree on them, you're set.

So, as the Bard might say... let's get crackin'

[Shadzar]

If you can't handle a little diversity training bleeding over into gaming then I have no pity for you. Go ahead and feel uncomfortable and out of place in a group you should be feeling safe. You should have to share that feeling with us if that is how it is going to be.

I think there should be critical thought put into gaming and wrestling with the moral implications can and should be part of the game

and this is the problem with those people. They try to corrupt and pervert simple little games by over thinking and the EXACT rreason they are kicked out of many games and not welcomed to others. they try to force themselves onto people, and HeroQuest being a game for kids, they should not be forcing themselves onto children.

I have no sympathy for them at all, they can feel "othered" all they want because they are the "others". While people wish to be able able to play a simple escapism game, these "otehrs" want to turn it into modern day politics. They will constantly harras anyone for liking something they don't like or for not going along with their every ideology in everything in life.

Someone else mentioned about how they can do thigns for their own games, but they want to force it onto everyone. Someone else mentioned was their only existance in life this "quality" they are using as their political agendas, and Yes, as sen here it is. They don't play games to paly the game, they invade popular culture to force their ideologies and politics on others, because if they don't like what oyu like, then you arent allowed to either.

This is the entire problem with the Orc Bard, it is being pushed and forced where it doesnt belong.

You can make Teifling Clerics in your HOME game of HeroQuest if you wish to, but shoving them into HQ would make little sense because it doesnt fit the game.

D&D is not HeroQuest and HeroQuest is not D&D.

These people canno understand that and need one rule for everythign in the world, and they choose the "D&D lifestyle" and try to force evrything into D&D and D&D into everything.

HeroQuest isnt about telling stories, jsut like D&D isnt about telling stories. they are both designed as murder hobo games.

D&D provides no "home" to go to, or any substantial rules for "life" outside of ocmbat, becaus it is a conflict resolution action adventure game, and as Stephen Baker said in his interview with someone recently since the realese of the HasbroPulse campaing that HeroQuest is an adventure game, and even Pulse lists it as a "Fantasy adventure game" not a storyteling game.

You can go tell stories, but that isnt wht the game was made for. it is simple kick in the door, kill the mosters an take their stuff game, not unlike the Munchkin card game which uses that as its tagline.

I am sick of it.

HeroQuest as a community, not jsut this wbsite, is already fractured because of this mess and it was done by the invaders, interlopers, terrorist that have tried taking a foothold into gaming to pervert and corrupt it.

HeroQuest is a little game, stop overthinking it. Kep your home game out of everyone else's game and stop forcing yourself onto others. Just find the group you wish to play with, everyone else doesnt have to agree with you.

I played with a woman in a wheelchair in D&D, she didn' want a wheelchair for her character. I Played D&D with a gay couple, they didnt want their characters gay int he game. the black men and women i played with didnt want to be blacks, they werent even HUMANS in D&D, 2 were dwarves, and the other was a elf woman (she was a female IRL). Only one woman tried to play a male character, but didnt like it because she "didnt know how to act male"... so we just changed the M to an F on her character sheet.

Axis & Allies i had a Jewish guy play the Axis against me. A person of Jewish faith playing the Nazis?

in HeoQuest i have never had a female player saying they wanted a female barbarian sculpt to be "representative of them", they didnt care because its a game. It is part of the game, the heroes are jsut meat sacks with metal sticks trying to steal metal discs and better metal sticks. They fight the evil meat scaks to do so.

Stop overthinking things and forcing agendas into everything and stop attacking people for not wanting to participate in your virtue signaling perpetual victimhood lifestyle where everything is political and modern.

And why i say they are terrorist, i am using the LEGAL definition.

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism

Domestic terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature.

and for the larger part of gaming that involves Anita S and her crowd of people, they are promoting and inciting and participating in violence ever since that "GamerGate" nonsense, to force their political agendas.

So, i pity you for not being able to understand, you will never force people to think a certain way, and the more you try, the more pushback you ill get.

Just enjoy your game in your home, and stop trying to invade other peoples homes and their games, and let them pay their own games. You have a right to YOUR game, not to other people's games, and that goes as far as trying to change it to something else. (see the circle of diversity image posted around page 15)

If someone doesnt let you play the game for some superficial reason, they are the problem, not the game itself. so take you "bad DM" complex and complain to that bad DM you had, and stop attributing that to everyone else and atacking them and seek profesional help for your mental anguish they caused. Games arent a metal health aid, no matter how the "influencers" on Twitch, Twitter, or TikTok wish you to beleive. It is like alcholo or other narcotic substances, a crutch that only helps when it is being used. Seek real professional help for these other things otherwise YOU will not find lasting help, only be in constant war with not only the people that you are arguing and trying to force yourself onto, but at constant war with yourself as well.

Orcs are NOT black people or "Native Americans". Never one have i thought, "Hey that orc demeans me as a Cherokee". Because I am not a fictional creature, i am a real world human being. I even disagree with Washington Redskins name change!

Orcs in HeroQuest are EVIL as they are the evil side.

I will burn the Spirit Torment book and the Orc Bard card when it comes it to DESTROY the SJW nonsense, and use the mini for the named orc in that quest from the core game. You wish to pretend HeroQues is D&D, then do so in YOUR HOUSE. You have no right to other peoples homes.

#RPGate: Games are Escapism not Representation.

[Shadzar]

I am done with this place, it is worse than ENWorld with its agenda pushing trash everywhere that refuse to let people peaceably play games to escape the garbage that is the real world, especially in the case of 2020.

[Pancho]

I am done with this place, it is worse than ENWorld with its agenda pushing trash everywhere that refuse to let people peaceably play games to escape the garbage that is the real world, especially in the case of 2020.

I think that’s a massive over-reaction to be quite honest. I completely agree with what almost everything you have said so far about Heroquest, the Orc Bard silliness, and SJW ideology, but emotional reactions to this stuff is exactly what they would do.
I’ve been here a bit longer and I’ll tell you now that this is one of the best forums I have ever found on the internet. There are, at maximum, only 4 or 5 SJW’s who hang out here, and they have been absolutely fine up until the Hasbro re-release. 2 or 3 of them only joined or rejoined after the release. They are perfectly entitled to their opinions, and we are perfectly entitled to ignore or challenge them, or roll around laughing.

[Davane]

I think you perhaps are incapable of seeing that yes indeed the heroes are actually evil to the monsters

pretty much the only righteous dungeons are the ones where the heroes go to destroy undead and the ones where you must rescue the helpless, going into a lair of orcs for the soul purpose of killing and looting is evil

I think there should be critical thought put into gaming and wrestling with the moral implications can and should be part of the game

I know that every story I tell at the game table offers the heroes the chance to be the force of morality ... and sometimes that is a thing that will change the quest objective mid mission
maybe Mentor and the Emperor are occasionally the evil party, the real fun complication is what you gonna do about it?

I need more from my fantasy than sitting back and accepting a false fantasy that says my side is never evil and the other guys are always bad. Just lazy. Lazy lazy lazy.

Have you thought about playing a game better suited to your tastes than HQ? D&D is a great game, and it's full of the flexibility that you crave. WFRP might even be better, right up your alley, as the whole point is about subjective Evil, and about heroes facing moral dilemmas that can imperil their very souls if they aren't kept in check.

I get the impression that you don't quite understand the point of Objective Evil.

Objective Evil is quite simple - Evil is an inherent, definable trait, that's pretty much about what side you are on. More importantly, Objective Evil will often feature means of detecting it, so you have objective proof that creatures are evil. Objective Evil is very rarely about morality.

One of the key tenets of Objective Evil is that evil will spend as much time fighting itself, because it is Evil. There's generally more Evil than Good, but because Evil is divided, it is too easily defeated by Good, but rarely for long.

Age of Sigmar demonstrates this quite well in how they have their factions - you have one Good faction: Order. However, there are THREE Evil factions: Chaos, Death, and Destruction. The Evil factions are just as likely to fight each other as they are to fight the forces of Order.

All three of these Evil factions appear in HQ, because they are staples of the fantasy genre. You have Chaos, you have Death (the Undead), and you have Destruction (the Orcs).

My favourite quote of all time comes from Nietzsche - "Be wary when fighting monsters, lest you become a monster too." That's the crux of subjective evil, that the risk of fighting evil is that you become evil. Of course, there's the counter argument as well - that the risk of NOT fighting evil is that you become evil. Such games and settings become a delicate balancing act of moral dilemmas.

But HQ is not a game about subjective evil. It's a game about objective evil, where you are Heroes trained by an old dude with a magical book that can tell you what is and isn't evil, as you act as pawns in a game with his fallen apprentice who seeks to try and unify the forces of evil (which is about as effective as herding cats) into a tide of darkness to defeat the Heroes. It's simple to grasp, simple to play.

As far as I am concerned, let's keep social justice to the real world, where it actually makes a difference. Settings with objective evil in them primarily serve to demonstrate exactly why there's no such thing as objective evil in the real world.

[j_dean80]

Where are the mods? Can we take all this crap down?