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Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Oftkilted » December 1st, 2020, 9:23 pm

Orc26 wrote:Hey, it takes effort to be at my level of unintelligence. Also it is looking like I may get some time tonight to play around on TTS, bard testing is high on my list. Let's see if he can help a wizard, dwarf, and barbarian save a soon to be traitor.

Side note: Anyone else think that saving Ragnar actually interrupted his report on the state of the empire?

As an Orc that’s been rebooted 26 times you’ve got some excuses. Wait ... wrong game ... :lol: |_P I’m sorry ... that’s Destiny ...
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Kurgan » December 1st, 2020, 9:39 pm

Then again, other than some tweaking, what needs to be "done" on the minis? The 3d models are already done. Presumably if they don't 3d print them in resin (which would be easy, but not as cool) they could need to make moulds and setup the injection system to cast them in plastic. I have no idea how long that takes but its not like you're having to hire sculptures in early November to carve them out of marble or something first.

They don't have to use the D&D world (I hear the voice of the Tower of Doom arcade game saying "welcome to the D&D world!"). It could be something brand new, but what are the odds. It would be probably more to their liking to be able to cross promote and crib it for ideas more easily.

The Heroes want to know... who is this character and what side are they on? Or are they just fighting for the highest bidder? What is the job we were hired for?

But you are HEROES! You fight for right! If an Orc is going to be a Hero (and this isn't a "play as the bad guys" scenario, which would be cool by the way), then he's going to have to be HEROIC. I don't just mean a player character. Hiring a monster merc would be cool because maybe he's a little less righteous than your average guy, maybe he gets out of control, maybe he turns on you. Maybe he uses dastardly methods. But an Orc that goes full good guy? Write a good story, a good reason why this happens.

It's an interesting challenge to make a goofy character like an Orc Bard feel like he fits. A bard is already challenging (which some have taken up already). An Orc character generally is much easier.

Now for a real challenge, how about an undead "Hero" character? A mummy has to pay for replacement bandages. Zombies have to sew limbs back on. Skeletons need their bones polished. You think quality grave moss comes cheap these days? The magic that keeps them animated starts to wear off and has to be re-applied from time to time. Or maybe you're just seeking revenge on the evil necromancer sorcerer who made you THIS THING? Their soul can't rest until he's in the ground and unable to put anyone else through what you've experienced.

OR maybe...

"The Wedding of Mr. Bones!"

Skeleton McRib has kidnapped your corpse bride-to-be! Skullela is bonenapped and so its up to you and your rag-tag group of undead to rescue her! As Mr. Bones stomps through graveyards, recruiting ghouls to help you and fighting off grumpy goblin graverobbers. Make your way through the town, past terrified villagers, until you find the old man, who knows the location of DeathViper, the necromancer.

DeathViper has hold up in the cave of ruin outside the town. Take your grave party of undying wretches, and hunt him down like a dog. Don't let the giant spiders use you as a toothpick on the way! Before his untimely passing, DeathViper revealed that McRib is getting away! This leads to a swashbuckling final duel on top of Ol' Bone Hill. You vs. Skeleton McRib, the most deadly skeleton swordsmen who ever died!

Once McRib is bone meal and Skullella is free, get ready for the coolest wedding death-day ever!


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Davane » December 2nd, 2020, 6:33 am

The original "bard" character as a hero class was actually an excuse for some mad multi-classing action in a system that didn't really include it very well. The bard is the ultimate JOAT class - a character that can fight, use magic, has some skills, and so forth. Bards could literally do a little bit of everything at the expense of mastery in any one class. In 1st edition AD&D, you could become a bard by first spending five levels as a fighter, another five to eight levels as a thief, and then several more levels as a druid (which was essentially a Magic-User/Cleric mix already). Only then could the become a bard, which basically allowed them to advance all of these three classes at once.

In AD&D 2nd Edition, the requirements to become a bard were dropped, but the theme wasn't - the Bard was still a JOAT class that can do pretty much a little bit of everything at the expense of mastery in any given subject. However, the Bard's thieving skills were reduced to just Picking Pockets, which kind of removed the point of being a thief in the first place. So, the theme would become much more fighter/mage like, just as the ranger was fighter/druid, and the paladin was fighter/cleric.

In 3rd edition, the thief was replaced by the rogue, which was more a generalised skill user, using the d20 skills system that incorporated AD&D thieving skills into the mix. Thus the rogue itself became more of an agile skill-based fighter, rather than a tank. Accordingly, the bard finally solidified into a form of rogue/mage. D&D 3.x also included a unique spell list for the Bard, differentiating them from druids and mages of earlier editions, but still having a focus on a fairly unique blend of arcane and divine magic, avoiding many of the overtly flashy magical effects (like fireballs) but bypassing the idea that arcane magic users shouldn't have access to healing spells. Oh, and with the normalisation of the sorcerer as an alternative mage, thus reducing the reliance on Vancian magic (the memorise, cast, forget approach), the bard ended up pretty much as it is now - a rogue/sorcerer.

The problem is that this archetype of rogue/sorcerer already existed in HQ for quite some time - as the Elf. Many Elf players commonly take Earth or Water as their spell group, both of which contain Healing spells, so pretty much all the bases for playing a Bard in HQ are already covered. The only thing lacking is not having the Dwarf ability to disarm traps, but this stopped being a fundamental part of the Bard concept some time ago, and HQ doesn't have much of an official skills system to replace it with.

That's why the idea of an Orc Bard is quite jarring in HQ. An Elven Bard probably wouldn't have raised an eyebrow, although after seeing AHQ and WHQ, there were already thoughts that the Elf may actually be replaced by an Elf Archer instead. After all, an Elven Bard is just a variant HQ Elf already. It literally feels like Teos has decided to replace everything Elvish as being Orcish, for no other reason than to get in on the Diversity in D&D zeitgeist. He's going to have to work REALLY HARD to make that NEW Ancient Orc Kingdom of Advanced Magic Users to not end up being the standard Ancient Elven Kingdom of Advanced Magic Users with a "funny mask" paintjob.

Teos could have gone with an Orc Barbarian, Orc Warrior, Orc Mercenary, or even an Orc Knight, and been much more plausible than an Orc Bard. The Warhammer World already has Orc Mercenaries (Dogs of War, anyone), so it could have been easily handwaved by fans without being so jarring, and provided some degree of continuity. Instead, it seems he went for shock factor and now the bard has been set extremely high to see him and Hasbro make it work.

Hasbro doesn't have any real need to rewrite the Warhammer World, since the Warhammer World is itself generic fantasy. Some of the lore would need changing, but GW doesn't own the rights to generalised tropes like Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, and Empires. Just as WotC don't own the rights to the generalised tropes of Dungeons or Dragons. Technically, GW doesn't even own the rights to the generalised trope of Chaos, so there wasn't any need for Chaos Warriors to become Dread Warriors. All we are really seeing is Hasbro trying to prove that they are not using the Warhammer World in any way, to divorce the brand from GW. However, it all seems rather pointless, when half the community are just going to ignore the changes and continue playing HQ in the Warhammer World, and the other half already don't set HQ in the Warhammer World in the first place.

Now, for the politics - I would be categorised as far left, and I am all for social justice. However, SJW's sicken me, because the defining characteristic of SJW's is that they fight for social justice in all the wrong places. They want to change things for the sake of change, trying to tap into a modern zeitgeist of social justice, without understanding why social justice is actually important. They don't understand a lot of things - such as the point of storytelling and tropes, or even basic concepts like "show, don't tell." They want to rewrite the past, yet have little concept of the past, or the implications of their actions. Plus, when it comes to gaming, especially tabletop gaming, they can't seem to differentiate between what's in game and what's out of game.

Outside the game, the majority demographic of gamers are heterosexual, white, male teens. But that's only because the normative demographic of Europe and the US, where gaming is a highly dominant sector, is that of heterosexual, white, male teens. Thus, advertisers - who know sex sells - will tailor their marketing to cater for heterosexual, white, male teens. The demographics of gamers are changing, slowly, because gaming itself isn't exclusive to heterosexual, white, male teens - but since gaming is typically a hobby for life, this will still be the majority for some time, good or bad, except that most of those teens have now grown up. I know I have (in age, if not maturity, at least)!

Social justice is about encouraging more people to play, to make the gaming community more diverse, and open to all. Don't put barriers in the way that say if you aren't heterosexual, white, male, or teen, you can't be a gamer. That's total BS. There shouldn't be a need for racism, sexism, homophobia, or anything else at the gaming table. Challenging these things at the gaming table makes sense.

In game, things are different. It's a fantasy world of storytelling, and the key feature is often choosing what stories to focus on telling. Not everyone wants a moral dilemma every time they take part in an action sequence. Not everyone wants to deal with storylines about prejudice and discrimination all the time. These can make for gripping stories, but only if they are the types of stories that you want to deal with at that time. Gaming has been diverse for some time - sure, you have musclebound barbarian warriors like Conan the Barbarian, but you also have the likes of Red Sonja too. In worlds of conflict, often of epic proportions, the little difference don't seem to matter as much. When there's actual monsters to fight, heroes don't have to make up new ones to give them a sense of purpose.

Most games are escapism, so we don't have to deal with the petty differences within our real lives. When you can fight monsters, what's it matter what colour skin that other human has, as long as they are fighting the monsters with you? Who cares if that Paladin is male or female, when you are facing Demons from the Abyss? Sexuality becomes much less of a concern when you are fighting to survive day to day in a devastated wasteland following a nuclear apocalypse. In worlds where magic can not only raise you from the dead, but change your very being, a lot of the tiny details don't necessarily matter unless you make them matter. BEcause that's what we do with stories - we simplify things down to the point that we get to only what actually matters. It makes them easier to convey.

I read through D&D books now, and they are littered with diversity, that has little or no relevance to me. What do I care if two male farmers decide to live together as a couple? Or if that Elf and Dwarf bonded over a mutual adventuring career and retired as a couple to run a tavern together? Nice little stories, but when an big metal dragon is destroying the town, do I really need to know or be bothered? I'm not going to have time to think about it, and chances are once it's over, they will probably exit stage left and I move on elsewhere because the world always needs saving.

It might be slightly more important if I am hired by a woman to protect her from her murderous ex-lover magic user who's planning to nuke the town, to know that she's actually into women, not men, but only because it changes who I am looking at as potential threats. Since the trope is based on a heteronormative society, changing the relationship to a homosexual one is subverting the trope, and provides an interesting twist, but it only works if the heteronormative trope exists in the first place. Without the heteronormative trope, it's not a twist, it's an irrelevance, as you should be looking for both male and female threats anyway.

This is the whole point of tropes in storytelling in the first place. They tell you what's normal, so that what's not normal stands out, and therefore becomes important to the story. If the trope is Orcs are monsters, then the Orcs that aren't monsters are going to stand out, and be deemed important. If too many Orcs aren't monsters, the trope ceases to exist, and Orcs that are not monsters become less important. Orcs become another part of the background noise of irrelevance that are just people, and the impact of using Orcs as a storytelling tool becomes blunted, and another monster rises to fill it's place, so you can make the non-monster monsters stand out.

SJW's can't seem to understand that there's a distinction between what is in game and what is out of game. We don't live in a world full of monsters - we live in a world full of people, many of whom seek to turn other people into monsters in the eyes of others. They use many of the same storytelling techniques that games use to define monsters, but use them to dehumanise people. But what most gaming is actually doing is teaching people the coded terms to define monsters, so that you can spot when they are being used against you and other people. More importantly, they are teaching you how to define between people and monsters, until you get to the point you realise that monsters is actually just a coded term for "the enemy", and that who we define as monsters and people is entirely up to us. Gaming teaches us about storytelling, so we can learn to be critical of the stories being told to us, and not just believe the BS we are fed by people who basically want to tell us how to think, so we don't have to...
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Oftkilted » December 2nd, 2020, 9:50 am

Davane wrote:[...]
Outside the game, the majority demographic of gamers are heterosexual, white, male teens.But that's only because the normative demographic of Europe and the US, where gaming is a highly dominant sector, is that of heterosexual, white, male teens. Thus, advertisers - who know sex sells - will tailor their marketing to cater for heterosexual, white, male teens. The demographics of gamers are changing, slowly, because gaming itself isn't exclusive to heterosexual, white, male teens - but since gaming is typically a hobby for life, this will still be the majority for some time, good or bad, except that most of those teens have now grown up. I know I have (in age, if not maturity, at least)!


Do you have an actual source for this statement? Because it doesn’t align with any of the data that I’ve seen. The majority of gamers are over age 18. The largest population of gamers ranges between 18-34 at ~38%, and females make up ~45% of the current gamer space.

Only ~21% of gamers are 18 or under. That means that 79% of all gamers are over the age of teens.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/189 ... ince-2010/

And doesn’t align well with the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) study on gamers
https://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploa ... dustry.pdf

Care to share your data source?

Because what it looks like you’re describing is the stereotype of the gaming market. Not the actual gaming market.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Davane » December 2nd, 2020, 11:03 am

Oftkilted wrote:Because what it looks like you’re describing is the stereotype of the gaming market. Not the actual gaming market.


Is there actually a difference?

There have been two main changes in the gaming demographic - the demographic for girl gamers has increased, but it's still male dominated. Stereotypes aside, the biggest cause for that change has been down to The Sims franchise, which is dominated by female gamers. In other areas of the gaming market, there hasn't been quite as big a change in the percentage of female gamers, particularly for the board game sector.

The second is that the gaming demographic has aged, because games who were playing thirty or fourty years ago, are still playing now. Their tastes haven't really changed that much however. The majority of gamers started game in their teens, and whilst some stopped as they got older, most continued gaming, doing exactly what they enjoyed about gaming when they were teens.

Changes in demographics haven't changed the tastes of gamers, which was already incredibly diverse. The gamer stereotype exists, because gamers generally conform of find the target demographic - the gamer stereotype - appealing to them. So, even if they are 40+, they are still essentially being attracted to and targeted as if they were teens.

Identity construction is a two way process, and you will find that many gamers subconsciously conform to aspects of the gamer stereotype, either because they want to be accepted, because they actually find that appealing, or because they essentially share those traits.

My point is that the normative identity of a gamer is the same as the normative identity of society in general, because the gaming community is as diverse as society itself. Gamers are everywhere, do anything, and can be anyone.

The gaming community itself doesn't really care if you are white, if you are male, if you are heterosexual, or if you are a teenager. All that really matters is that you like games, be it all types of games, a subsection of games, or a personal selection of favourites. Since the gaming community doesn't care, advertisers who DO care fill in the blanks with the normative identity of society.

Gaming itself is a hobby, and like any hobby, the primary concern is passion. If two people share a passion, they can have a bond that doesn't matter whether you are white, male, heterosexual, or teen. When you are dealing with gamers, you are dealing with fans - people who like what they like, and don't like what they don't like. People who are just people, but actually care about things that other might find stupid or bizarre. People who care about whether or not an Orc Bard fits with the HeroQuest brand, game system, and/or lore.

Yes, the gamer demographic is changing, just as society is changing, but what makes people gamers hasn't really changed at all.

The problem is that as a community gets more diverse, you are going to get people with undesirable traits in the community. But those traits don't DEFINE the community. Just because there's one sexist gamer, doesn't mean the whole gamer community is sexist. Same with racism and homophobia.

The only defining trait of the gamer is a passion for gaming. Everything else is irrelevant. Even age - because right now, there's a lot of 40+ year old gamers who are still teens in their head, because that's when they typically started gaming.

The fact that it's your teens where you normally start to find, discover, and form your identity, can't be overlooked either. The identity you form in your teens and young adulthood will typically define your life up until the inevitable midlife crisis, where you begin to question whether your life actually matches your identity or not.

Plus, there's the interesting fact that surprisingly few people ever fit the normative identity for anything. Identity is built as much by what makes you different, as it is by what makes you belong. Identity is a set of building blocks of ideas and generalisations that can be used to define you, so people's heads don't explode when they try and explain someone to someone else, or end up giving meaningless answers like "Oh, that's just Davane," as if a name like Davane has any sort of inherent meaning of it's own.

The normative identity is the stereotype that people fill in the blanks with.

And sorry, no data sources. It's all theory, because I KNOW most of the theories. I don't get paid enough for actual data too! Heck, I don't get paid enough for this, but I get bored easily...
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby j_dean80 » December 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm

Are we done with this dumb conversation that has nothing to do with this topic being flooded? I’m not taking a side, just saying I’m tired of seeing it.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby cynthialee » December 2nd, 2020, 12:52 pm

As a queer woman I can tell you that if you do not understand why there needs to be a diversity push in gaming then you have no clue.

We can't even play with our own in-groups at the local gaming store for christ sakes!!!

If we do we get hovered by pervs or somehow even worse there is the guy who wants to gainsay our DM on everything, make snarky comments about our game world lore and make a stink anytime we say or do something that doesn't fit in the game shop as far as he is concerned

then there is the dude who wants to just watch and he wasn't talking about the game.......

No!

Men need to clean up their act and not turn the game/game store into a locker room.

If you can't handle a little diversity training bleeding over into gaming then I have no pity for you. Go ahead and feel uncomfortable and out of place in a group you should be feeling safe. You should have to share that feeling with us if that is how it is going to be.

See this attitude right here is what drove me away from Ye Old Inn years ago. Bunch of macho bullshit
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If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Cael Darkhollow » December 2nd, 2020, 12:57 pm

plain and simple adding an orc hero option breaks the basic good-versus-evil tenet that is essential to a simple board game.
the enemies are always referred to in the books as monsters (even the chaos warlock) or as morcar/zargon's minions; especially the orcs. They ARE monsters and always enemies in the original game, period.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Oftkilted » December 2nd, 2020, 1:03 pm

Cael Darkhollow wrote:plain and simple adding an orc hero option breaks the basic good-versus-evil tenet that is essential to a simple board game.
the enemies are always referred to in the books as monsters (even the chaos warlock) or as morcar/zargon's minions; especially the orcs. They ARE monsters and always enemies in the original game, period.


Then how do we address the human Dark Warriors in the Dark Company expansion?

Obviously this model is not an enemy as the model is a hero. And heroes aren’t ‘evil’. Therefore this Orc wouldn’t be a “monster”.

In much the same way that the ‘henchmen’ that are Dark Warriors aren’t ‘henchmen’ anymore. Effectively they’re Monsters.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby cynthialee » December 2nd, 2020, 3:36 pm

hear, here!!!

Evil is by deeds not birth.

My game word has room for unique situations, odd characters and the occasional Lore Defying person.

Hell maybe Mentor thinks it is funny to turn an Orc into a Bard good guy on his days off. "Oh the last orc bard died....lol yeah I got another one just to piss off Zargon. Turn his own minions against him. Serve him his own medicine."
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If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
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