Carl Forhan's Rogue vs Original Heroes

[Jazzdrummer]

Okay I wanted to summarize the rogue variations I've been trying out and get some feedback on which one seems to fit the mold and spirit of the basic game. I'm mainly going to list the special ability. Stats will be the same for all which are:

Body Points
Mind Points 4
Movement
Attack Dice
Defense Dice
Starting Weapon - Short Sword
Starting Armor - None
Restrictions - Can't use plate mail, battle axe, staff

Special Ability...

Variation #1 - CRITICAL STRIKE: If rogue rolls all skulls then hits are doubled plus has the ability to move through a single monster space.
Variation #2 - STEALTH: Can move-attack-move OR move through a single monster space.
Variation #3 - When searching can draw two treasure cards and pick one. If the rogue is directly behind a monster she can roll 1 extra dice.

My thoughts so far on each...

Variation #1 - I've played two games with this version and its very good but feels a bit powerful. Rolling two skulls on 2 dice happened quite often. So having the ability to roll 4 skulls felt a bit stronger than the barbarian at times. She basically does either 0 hits, 1 hit, or 4. Add the ability to move through monsters and she was pretty bad ass.

Variation#2 - Played one game with this version. I like it. Very unique and simple. It was suggested that she only be able to choose one special movement at a time as opposed to being to do both in single turn. I think that's cool.

Variation#3 - This is probably my favorite simply for theme. Rogues are typically well versed in finding goodies as well as backstabbery. I'm not using any facing rules so I don't know if it really makes much sense. Originally the bonus die was 2. I again I figured this was a bit powerful. At same time its pretty difficult to get directly behind a monster since a lot of the areas are pretty cramped. Not sure which one to go with. Still, this is overall my favorite just because of theme. I'm a sucker for thematic characters.
Let me also say these ideas and suggestions came from all you guys so thank you again for the help. So which one seems the most balanced and fun?

[Teldurn]

For variation 1, I would restrict the dice doubling. You can't double your dice hits if you move through a monster on the same turn.
Variation 2 seems fine to me.
For variation 3, how do you determine when she is behind a monster? Do you have separate facing rules? as far as I know, because of the nature of being in adjacent squares, facing rules without fail tend to be clunky and overly complex. Having said that, I think keeping the treasure card ability just by itself is fine.

I'll also throw out another two more variations for you to think about.

Variation #4: EXPLODING DICE: A rogue attacking with one dagger (1CD) and no shield may reroll until a is not rolled or up to 4, whichever comes first. These results are then tallied together for the attack. For fluff description, you could say this could represent a sneak attack, or maybe her knowledge of anatomy to bypass a monster's armor. She cannot explode her dice if she throws the dagger.

Variation #5: OPENING STRIKE: If rogue discovers a new monster and is able to attack it before it has activated, she can roll 1 extra attack die on that monster.

[Jazzdrummer]

Thanks so much for the feedback. I agree that the whole 'behind the monster' is a bit odd. Honestly it was hard to pull off most of the time anyways. I like your two ideas as well. A few comments:

Variation #4 Would she be able to do this on every attack I assume? Very cool and thematic.
Variation #5 So basically any monster that hasn't acted? This would make it a good idea for the rogue to go into rooms first as opposed to the barbarian. Very nice.

Another thing I like about these ideas is they are just one ability as opposed to two. I wasn't really liking the idea of the rogue having two abilities while everyone else has one.

[Teldurn]

Variation #4 Would she be able to do this on every attack I assume? Very cool and thematic.

Yes, every attack. As long as she fits the three criteria. 1) only one dagger, 2) no shield, 3) gets a skull on the first roll, you can keep rerolling.

Variation #5 So basically any monster that hasn't acted? This would make it a good idea for the rogue to go into rooms first as opposed to the barbarian. Very nice.

That's the idea. It provides incentive for a less-armored and less-BP rogue to stick her neck out before the beefy barbarian does.

[Jazzdrummer]

Thanks again for the clarifications. Great ideas here for sure and I will try both. Do you agree with my stat allocation and item restrictions?

[Teldurn]

You're welcome. Frankly, personally I'd prefer starting Body Points to be 5, but otherwise it looks great.

[Jazzdrummer]

It seems I've got two heroes here; a thief and an assassin.

FINAL VERSIONS

Thief (Sotiris gave me this one)

Body Points
Mind Points
Attack Dice
Defense Dice
Starting Equipment: 2 daggers, Toolkit
Item Restrictions: Can not use shield, plate armor, Long sword, Battle axe
Skill: In treasure search draw 2 cards and keep the best

Assassin

Body Points
Mind Points
Attack Dice
Defense Dice
Starting equipment: Dagger if using first skill. Short sword if using second.
Item Restrictions: Can not use shield, plate armor, Long sword, Battle axe
Skill: May reroll until a is not rolled up to 4 times, whichever comes first. (Dagger only) OR extra when attacking a monster that hasn't acted yet. (Not sure which one I like the most)

I really like both of these heroes for different reasons and they both fill their own niche which I think is very cool. Does anyone know how to make up custom hero cards for these guys? I guess I could just write the info down on one of the included character sheets and find a cool mini.

[Teldurn]

The thief looks good to me. For the assassin, I think you should stick to keeping it with the short sword starting weapon. It's up to the player to acquire a dagger to "unlock" the other half of the special ability. That's how I'd do it. That way, he's still got an option to use a special ability, but can become something more if the player chooses to.

Feel free to disregard if you don't agree!

[Jazzdrummer]

For the assassin I was planning on just using one of the two abilities, not both. I just can't decide which one would be the better choice. So many decisions...

[Daedalus]

I prefer the Thief over the Assassin. As is, the Assassin looks to me like a weak choice down the line. The exploding die ability starts out as an early gain, but the Barbarian easily out-classes and Assassin when a battle axe is gotten (if not earlier). He has 3 more Body Points, greater average damage, and the option of plate mail. Only the difference of 2 Mind Points begins to address that.

The early-strike ability also doesn't measure up favorably against a Barbarian. Except for the temporary benefit gained when a cheaper broadsword can be purchased before the Barbarian gets a battle axe, a rarer early-strike only equals a Barbarians standard attack. At other times the Assasin is stuck with a weapon that rolls 1 less damage. Body Points and plate mail vs. Mind Points remain unequal, as above.

I'd suggest increasing his Body Points to 6, removing the shield restriction, and go with the early-strike ability. I'd also retain the exploding-die dagger for later as an artifact. It should be restricted so that the Elf, Wizard, and Barbarian may not use it.