How do you handle Gear Swapping?

[cynthialee]

Yeah no..
If you use the weapon, how you gonna give it away?

Heroes must be adjacent and their action would be the hand off of an item or two. Handing off the item/s would be the initiators action, and when it came time for the accepting party to have a turn, they would have used their action part of their turn accepting the item.
Just grate all cheese early on.

[mitchiemasha]

That is possible in our system...

The Elf rolls 2 d6. Result 5 and 3. Moves 4 sacrifices the 3, passing the Dwarf whilst moving and takes from Him the crossbow, uses it to shoot Orc, misses. Dwarf rolls 2d6, 3 and 4 has a choice, use both dice to charge up and smash the Orc or sacrifice 1d6 to take the crossbow back (now unreachable for melee) and take a shot.

Initially the action was only to give, the Hero would need to be the acting character to pass the item. Play testing showed this needed to change. I also added passing as leaving it as adjacent suggests it has to be at the end or start of your turn. I wanted as little restrictions as possible to players planning out there round. It has to remain open and simple, uncomplicated.

"Sacrifice 1 rolled d6 give/receive whilst passing or adjacent. Both reequip for free."

[Gold Bearer]

To be clear, doing it my way, the hero has to start the round with the item, not the turn, or it doesn't work because a hero could use the item then give it to someone else to use on their turn.

It has to remain open and simple, uncomplicated.

"Sacrifice 1 rolled d6 give/receive whilst passing or adjacent. Both reequip for free."

That's still a little finicky.

Yeah no..
If you use the weapon, how you gonna give it away?

Heroes must be adjacent and their action would be the hand off of an item or two. Handing off the item/s would be the initiators action, and when it came time for the accepting party to have a turn, they would have used their action part of their turn accepting the item.
Just grate all cheese early on.

Using an action is probably the best idea but there's no need to take off an action from a hero when it's not their turn...

A character may use their action to take an item from or give an item to an adjacent ally. Simple. That way there doesn't need to be a different rule for one use items. That's my new rule.

[knightkrawler]

I quote from HQ - Heroes & Villains:
"On their turn, a hero may give an adjacent hero an equipment, artefact, or treasure card, but must count three squares instead of one if they move further during this turn."
Which leaves a hole in my rules.

I'll probably add to the Equipment and Artefact card description sections:
"Each card can only be used once per round."

And there you go, no crossbow reaching around.
Nice thread, this. An indirect second opinion/practical example of a rule hole.

[Gold Bearer]

I'll probably add to the Equipment and Artefact card description sections:
"Each card can only be used once per round."

And there you go, no crossbow reaching around.

Only allowing each item to be used once per round closes the loophole but I think requiring an action makes a lot more sense because if you've just been handed an item then it really shouldn't matter if it's been used that round or not. If you can put away the item you've just been given and then take out another item and use it then you really should be able able to just use the one you've been given. My original rule had the same problem.

The questions now are whether you can do it with more than one item and whether you can give and take items at the same time. I'd be inclined to rule yes because there's no point in adding restriction other than to close the hole.

A character may use their action to take an item or items from, and/or give an item or items to, an adjacent (including diagonally) ally if both players agree to it.

[Jafazo]

Lol that would be hilarious to watch. Barbarian attacks with his battle axe and does massive damage. Elf passes him taking his battle axe plate mail armor helmet and other artifacts then continues to move adjacent to the enemy and attacks. The Dwarf does the same thing passing the elf. The team just buys one set of gear and relies on it throughout the adventure. Hahaha

[Gold Bearer]

Lol that would be hilarious to watch. Barbarian attacks with his battle axe and does massive damage. Elf passes him taking his battle axe plate mail armor helmet and other artifacts then continues to move adjacent to the enemy and attacks. The Dwarf does the same thing passing the elf. The team just buys one set of gear and relies on it throughout the adventure. Hahaha

It would be funny the first time if it hadn't occurred to you before but it would get annoying very fast.

Another thing is that equipment swapping during a fight is a bit silly as well. Maybe they shouldn't be able to do it if there's a monster in sight or in the same room or corridor, or at least if there's an adjacent monster. I think that might be a US rule anyway. Either that or it's one of Sotiris' custom rules I'm remembering from pbp.

[knightkrawler]

I think I'll add, "A hero can give another an Equipment or Artefact card, but cannot take an action during the same round."
That settles the shenanigans.

[mitchiemasha]

Barbarian attacks with his battle axe and does massive damage. Elf passes him taking his battle axe plate mail armor helmet and other artifacts then continues to move adjacent to the enemy and attacks. The Dwarf does the same thing passing the elf. The team just buys one set of gear and relies on it throughout the adventure. Hahaha

That would be amazing if it would actually work that way but it wont. Creating a lot more excitement in 1 round. Planning strategy and trust... "you better give me that AXE, just give me the AXE, I NEED THE AXE!!!"

1. Usually Heroes don't want to part with their gear.
2. It would leave all the other Heroes weak.
3. The Hero in many cases would need MAM, to move away, to free up space for the other to attack.
4. It doesn't say any amount of items but now you mention that i may need to think about that parameter, it hasn't come up yet, see 1. People only pass 1 or trade.
5. The loss of 1 rolled movement d6 (there's a good reason why it says rolled) is enough of a loss to make it work, with out slowing down the game too much. Heroes need to be quicker in my Quest due to other mods against them, Chaos Tokens, rolling double 1 etc!!!
6. With Plate Mail armour they wouldn't be able to move that turn, they already lose a d6.

When the rule first started it was a full action, give to adjacent, simples, which created problems. We've play tested the idea from it's roots, It's passed through all the variations here. In games i noticed different instances popping up where new players would try do do something and i'd be "No, no, that's not how it works, the rule is written to mean this way." I didn't want to have mods that were filled with me having to explain the NO! ruining the game (edit: much better to mod the mod to suit them). It's easier and more HQ, to have it not possible at all but that's not as fun, options are fun.

If a hero wishes to do a bonus action they sacrifice 1 rolled Md6. There are different types of bonus actions, some unique to Hero. This is a universal rule, easy to learn. If it's Freds turn and he wants to do 1 of many things with Jeff whilst passing Jeff, all he has to do is not move the value of 1d6, sacrifice it. Can't get simpler than that.

How the mod currently stands was a eureka moment at the table. I went to explain to a new player they couldn't do what they were trying to do as it needed to be the other players... blah blah... complicated boring stuff turning them off from the game. Then I realised why not, their idea, what they wanted to do was a good one. I just need to figure out a way to write the mod to suit all these instances and... I DID! lol!!!

[Daedalus]

Hmm. My old group didn't swap items. Since then, the Inn and the various files here have provided a place for a rules-hack like me to explore more possibilities. Since the EU rules don't cover gear swapping, I look to certain NA rules that provide insight for passing items.

[Reveal] Spoiler: rules-lawyer rationalizations

Found on p.13 of the Instruction Booklet under Looking and Opening Doors:

. . . Opening a door is NOT one of the six actions. Both "looking" and "opening doors" are simply considered to be additional things you may do on your turn. . . . Getting caught in a trap, drinking potions and picking up things also do not count as actions. They can be done at any time during your turn.

Picking up a dead Hero's (or cursed Werewolf's) things also transfers items, so I figure the same non-action rules can apply: Passing an item is done in addition to an action, at any time during a Hero's turn.

Found on p. 16 of the Instruction Booklet, under More About Treasure:

Artifacts
. . . For example, the Wizard's Cloak and the Wizard's Staff may only be used by the Wizard. If another Hero finds one of these items, he should give it to the Wizard.

Potions
. . . You may drink more than one potion at a time. . . . You may give one of your potions to a fellow Hero, but you may only do so only on your turn.

These specific, in-game examples of passing items provide further guidance: A Hero May transfer one or more items stored on himself to in-hand, and vise-versa. A Hero may pass one item on his turn to another Hero.

Paraphrased from the Armory:

Most armor is worn on the body. Weapons are used to attack, a hand-held shield is used to defend, while a tool kit is used to disarm a trap.

A weapon, a shield, and a tool kit are all hand-held when used. When not in use, these items are transferred from in-hand to on-body (stowed.) Most armor is similarly worn on-body. Since passing an item to another Hero also involves transferring an item from in-hand, this suggests to me the same rules governing passing between Heroes can be applied to stowing and wearing items. Additionally, equipping an item to in-hand from on-body likewise functions like passing, but as the receiver: A Hero may put in-hand, stow, put on, or remove any items as if passing them to himself.

Found on p.4 of the BQP and p.5 of the EQP:

5.[/]6. Rule Clarifications

• Passing Items: A Hero can pass a potion, artifact, weapon or any other item to another Hero only if the 2 Heroes are in adjacent squares and neither Hero is adjacent to a monster.

This excerpt directly explains item passing further and definitively applies.

TL;DR So here's everything I choose to regulate gear swapping:

• Passing an item is done in addition to an action, at any time during a Hero's turn.
• A Hero may pass one item on his turn to another Hero.
• A Hero may put in-hand, stow, put on, or remove one or more items as if passing them to himself.
• A Hero can pass a potion, artifact, weapon or any other item to another Hero only if the 2 Heroes are in adjacent squares and neither Hero is adjacent to a monster.

Returning to the OP scenario, I'd only allow a Hero affected by a Fear spell to benefit from passing the Talisman of Lore. Sleep is only available to Hero Spellcasters, and while a Hero affected by a Command spell could be passed an artifact, he certainly wouldn't put it on in an attempt to break the spell as he is controlled by Morcar/Zargon.

Even though passing the talisman could aid the affected Hero, it wouldn't be easy to do it. M/Z can prevent the pass by positioning a monster adjacent to either Hero. Furthermore, it will take 3 to 4 turns--depending which Hero goes first--to remove the talisman, pass it, and then put it on.

Regulating passing also mitigates shennannigans mentioned in this topic:

• A battle axe can be passed, but tougher or lucky monsters prevent this through adjacency if they aren't killed outright.
• A crossbow can be passed, but the unlimited arrows must be passed separately on another turn. At best, a loaded crossbow can be shot, reloaded, and passed for a one extra shot only.
• Monster positioning and random Hero movement conspire to make efficient use of a passed weapon rare.
• Swapping full gear load-outs one item at a time takes too many turns to reasonably work within a battle.
• With ordered turns, it takes 2 turns for a passed item to be returned and ready for use.
• A free hand must be available to receive a passed item. This may require an equipped item to be dropped if it wasn't stowed on a previous turn. Dropped items can only be picked up if a Hero is on the same square space where the item was dropped.