To kill or not to kill...

[Goblin-King]

Reading another thread I wondered what everybody's view on killing heroes is.
What is your style? Goals? self-imposed rules?

In my experience it's really hard to kill a well functioning party of experienced players (which mine happens to be).
I'm always baffled when some of you speak as if you could almost party wipe anytime you felt like it?! I'm thinking perhaps NA or custom rules?
Well, I play EU rules and the monsters are made of paper... I need a lot of bad luck for the players to deliver killing blows.

So my philosophy is that I'll do whatever I can to kill everybody with the tools given in the rules and the quest.
I never improvise on the fly to modify the difficulty. If it's too easy, good for them. If it's too hard, it's revenge from that time it was too easy.

Because the heroes rarely die I have no problem acting like a total bastard and mocking them in my evil voice (or being overly furious and disappointed when they are doing good)
"Foolish hero! You stepped right into my trap"
"My chaos warrior delivers a massive blow! Defend against 4 skulls if you can!"
"No! NOO! You cannot escape my dungeon! COME BACK!"

Funny thing is that this has created a whole new kind of tension.
Because I'm such a bastard, every dead monster is worthy of celebration and a small punch to my gut.
Every escaped dungeon is a relief because you won't get to listen to my monologues.
But oh boy WHEN I kill a hero...


So how do you do it?

[clmckay]

NA Rules/Stats.

I kill when I can. Much like you, I don't get to kill all that often. Our in game rules are not substantially modified from the written rules. We do however have an extensive collection homemade boards/quests, monsters, items, etc.

We carry the same Heroes over from Quest to Quest. The players become very invested in their Heroes, when one dies, they mourn him. Then the player selects a new Hero to play (now using primarily GYGs Heroes). Depending on what equipment was salvaged by the other players they usually will give the new Hero what they picked up. (Occasionally, a bit jealously will set in over an item, but it's rare).

I personally feel that the balance in difficulty is well-managed on our games. We moved out of canon quests (and thus canon artifacts, equipment, spells, etc) some time back, only for the group to come back and now do the Elf Quest Pack. That has helped the balancing as the EQP is nuts played in line with the other canon quests.

I'd say on the whole......I kill a Hero every few quests, maybe 5. Sometimes the dice will roll bad and I'll get multiples, but that's particularly rare. On the exceedingly few occasions I've had the ability to do a TPK, I've intentionally held back. Not for any love of the Heroes or fear of them quiting the game, but because in the way we play, I'd take that as totally startign over - with the Base Quests. New Heroes join the experinced Heroes, who know what they're trying to accomplish what the missions are, ehere in teh world they're currently at. If evryone dies, then ...... they're all gone and the new Heroes won't have the foggiest idea about where the dead ones were or what they were doing. At least not without a change-up in the way we've done the story-telling.

[Gold Bearer]

I'm glad you've created this thread, it will gave me a place to vent without pissing off people in their own topics.

I think I've made my position very clear by now across various topics but I'll explain the exact reasoning behind it. In my mind for HQ to be fun it needs to be a group of heroes trying to complete a set objective that in no way changes depending on how well they happen to be doing. An EWP who helps out the heroes by altering the quests or rules in any way is completely and utterly negating every single thing that happened in the quest leading up to that point. It's meaningless because every move, every spell and attack lead to the situation they currently find themselves in.

As an example, in Sotiris, pbp that we're doing at the moment we got ourselves into a very awkward situation (mainly my fault) where two heroes were under a command spell, one of them trapped with two fimirs and six kobolds that can combine their attacks into one and one hero struggling with a one on one fight with a fimir and a bunch of kobolds pressing us from the opposite direction (but in a corridor so they can't combine their attacks). Then we lost our only healing spell as it was wasted by a hero under command. It was starting to look very bleak but we may have just turned the corner. I mesmerised (one of my home brew spells that's like command but uses the caster's MP as well) one of the fimirs (my arch wizard is a powerful but very unreliable caster so I was lucky I was able to do it) and used it to kill one of the kobolds and one of the heroes fought off command. It looks like we might be through the worst of it. In a game where the EWP is holding back in any way or making changes to help the heroes none of that would mean *lemony goodness*!

There are ways to balance the game if the heroes are struggling that can be used in the right way. One example is my random events table that takes into account how many luck points the players and EWP has, which are given out based on how many wounds have been suffered. There's also time when I do help the players 'out of game', like reminding them that they have a certain potion or even getting involved in tactical discussions about the best way they can fight off the current monsters for example. But these aren't 'in game', when it's time for the monsters to attack the should always do it to the best of the EWP's ability or the heroes' decisions are meaningless.

"No! NOO! You cannot escape my dungeon! COME BACK!"

"My chaos warrior delivers a massive blow! Defend against 4 skulls if you can!"

I thought you played with EU monster stats? Chaos warriors attack with three dice.

On the exceedingly few occasions I've had the ability to do a TPK, I've intentionally held back. Not for any love of the Heroes or fear of them quiting the game, but because in the way we play, I'd take that as totally startign over - with the Base Quests. New Heroes join the experinced Heroes, who know what they're trying to accomplish what the missions are, ehere in teh world they're currently at. If evryone dies, then ...... they're all gone and the new Heroes won't have the foggiest idea about where the dead ones were or what they were doing. At least not without a change-up in the way we've done the story-telling.

That's where you need a Mentor type character to recruit new heroes to the cause. If you play that new heroes get 500gp after completing three quests and becoming champions (I think that's the official rule) then a nice way to bring new heroes in at a higher level is to give them 250gp to start with and another 250gp when they become champions. That would make a big difference to a whole new set of heroes. I also always played it that quest treasures are kept even with a full party wipe, Mentor can teleport them out because they're magical.

[The Admiral]

I play NA, and I kill if I can, which varies immensly. When the original party got way too powerful I split them up and gave them each four basic heroes. I also add a special henchman for the main character for flavour along with any henchmen they can afford within the limits I allow. here is how the last four quest packs have gone (Ignoring henchmen losses):

Elf - Everyone died except for the main Elf.
Dwarf - Lost the new dwarf.
Wizard - no losses.
Barbarian - Lost the new Barbarian and Dwarf.

The Elf quest (Mage in the Mirror) was by far the most exciting with the lone main elf surviving on 2BP's!
The Wizard quest was the most boring with the whole party breezing it.

[clmckay]

That's where you need a Mentor type character to recruit new heroes to the cause. If you play that new heroes get 500gp after completing three quests and becoming champions (I think that's the official rule) then a nice way to bring new heroes in at a higher level is to give them 250gp to start with and another 250gp when they become champions. That would make a big difference to a whole new set of heroes. I also always played it that quest treasures are kept even with a full party wipe, Mentor can teleport them out because they're magical.

For our group it's not that simple. While I haven't changed what happens during a quest in any appreciable way, I have changed what happens between them extensively.

They have encounters which net them items sure, but also new quests. They move about the world on an overland map. The party may decide to start marching across the Darklands or the Wastes or towards some quest they've heard about in a far corner of the world. They have to get themselves there and to whereever they are going in that area. All the while, having the chance for these encounters which give them side quests and what not. If they all die, sure I could deus ex machina something, but to me, that's cheating. Cheating the story anyway.

So instead, I'd have them restart with basic Heroes and play from the Game System on, just as though the first group and everything they did never even existed. Don't get me wrong, they don't know that I have such an aversion to starting over. In fact, I've gleefully talked about what I'd do differently, when it happens. That makes them play for their lives, because they think I'd be thrilled to start over.

At this point, I think we're all too engrossed in the world and the traveling and the story for anyone to want a TPK and starting back where we did two years ago. (Though I would do somethings differently).

[The Admiral]

I do pep up quests if I feel they are too easy, but I have found that adding Evil Wizard cards is a good option so that I can leave the quest as written.

[Count Mohawk]

...
If they all die, sure I could deus ex machina something, but to me, that's cheating. Cheating the story anyway.

So instead, I'd have them restart with basic Heroes and play from the Game System on, just as though the first group and everything they did never even existed. Don't get me wrong, they don't know that I have such an aversion to starting over. In fact, I've gleefully talked about what I'd do differently, when it happens. That makes them play for their lives, because they think I'd be thrilled to start over.

At this point, I think we're all too engrossed in the world and the traveling and the story for anyone to want a TPK and starting back where we did two years ago. (Though I would do somethings differently).

If you do eventually pull off a total party kill, you should not reset the timeline. ( ) Instead, it would be better to say to your crew's set of new Heroes something like, "It's been a few years since the last group of Heroes I trained died and things have gotten more dire since then." The basic "training Quests" could probably be relatively the same, maybe just with changed names if there are named boss characters in there, but then afterwards they have to clean up the failed party's messes, who have had several years to power up and make further gains for Chaos.

Incidentally, the very end of Slev's HQR featured an encounter with a crew of "Dark Heroes", who had also been trained by Mentor but lost a battle vs Chaos some time before the game's storyline and became Morcar's servants. An event like that, even if only for one or two previously-dead Heroes, would certainly shake things up at the table...

[lucasdp]

I'm on NA rules and stats.

When playing as Zargon, I consider it a "win" (or at least an "I done my job good") if I get two or three heroes down to one BP, and maybe I actually kill one hero.

I try to rarely improvise to modify the difficulty, but as my Tuesday Night HeroQuest thread shows, I'm not unwilling to do so. GoldBearer is making an excellent point, though. I'll keep it in mind when planning future quests.

[clmckay]

If you do eventually pull off a total party kill, you should not reset the timeline. ( ) Instead, it would be better to say to your crew's set of new Heroes something like, "It's been a few years since the last group of Heroes I trained died and things have gotten more dire since then." The basic "training Quests" could probably be relatively the same, maybe just with changed names if there are named boss characters in there, but then afterwards they have to clean up the failed party's messes, who have had several years to power up and make further gains for Chaos.

I've thought about this, but have hoped it'd never come up. I could use some of the remade Base Quests that have been posted here at the Inn, for the maps. I'd still need to make a story, I'm strange, I just wouldn't want to resue the same story. I've not had motivation to go back and make an alternate first run-through pack up. I'd have to seriously consider it though if a TPK happened.

Incidentally, the very end of Slev's HQR featured an encounter with a crew of "Dark Heroes", who had also been trained by Mentor but lost a battle vs Chaos some time before the game's storyline and became Morcar's servants. An event like that, even if only for one or two previously-dead Heroes, would certainly shake things up at the table...

I like this idea. I've looked and asked a couple times for his Questbooks, but have never had any luck finding them. He's posted the canon questbooks, but not the others he did. I always keep my eyes out for them, I've head alot about them form several people. I think they must've been posted at his previous website, but not the current one. Slev one time posted his Dropbox with Quests, but I only saw the remade canon quests there.

[The Admiral]

When playing as Zargon, I consider it a "win" (or at least an "I done my job good") if I get two or three heroes down to one BP, and maybe I actually kill one hero.

Any difficulty amendments I make are done before I begin the quest, with the result you quote above as where I would really like the result to go, but once we begin, it's on, and I am all out to kill everyone! evil laughter...

I see little point in playing a quest in which I am almost certain everyone will die, or survive with ease.