Corridors, treasure and traps

[sajungzak]

I like the astral projection description, but I think of it as physical movement. You just don't have to actually move the mini for the sake of time. Although you could. It'd be like, "Do dee do, let's see if there's anything over here... nope. How about the corner over there." And you have to end up in the square you started. So that'd be like, "Hey guys, I'll be right back. Just gonna search this room/corridor right quick."

[sajungzak]

In the "search as you go" method, heroes have a small chance of ever finding a secret door in a corridor. That is, if I'm reading it right.
Also, heroes can only rely on luck when it comes to finding traps in rooms (not even counting attempting to disarm a trap). Seems to me that the heroes will quickly learn that the risk to reward ratio is not in their favor.

Traps and secret doors need to be combined.

I actually included that idea. It obviously removes the risk of traps when searching for secret doors, but saves time, adds a touch of realism, and further simplifies the rules. (This is usually a good thing, and is a question I always ask myself when considering a house rule. "Does it simplify things? If not, is it worth it?") I haven't tried it yet, but I would call it "scouting" for traps and secret doors, as opposed to "searching" for treasure. And I would probably only give it to one or two heroes as a special ability.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

In the "search as you go" method, heroes have a small chance of ever finding a secret door in a corridor. That is, if I'm reading it right.

A 'standard' Hero would find a secret door in a passageway 1/3 of the time, the Dwarf 1/2 the time so assuming a party of four all going the same way then the odds of NOT finding the door in a passageway (on your first pass) would be 2/3x2/3x2/3x1/2 = 8/54 so a little less than 1/6 (I am terrible at probability so that may need to be checked!).

Finding a secret door in a room is guaranteed under either set of rules provided you are searching. Under the current rules finding a secret door in a passageway is guaranteed but only if you search that square, so I think my method speeds the game up as it avoids the need to meticulously search all passageways to find a secret/hidden door particularly in those quests that need it to progress and it can take ages!

Also, heroes can only rely on luck when it comes to finding traps in rooms (not even counting attempting to disarm a trap). Seems to me that the heroes will quickly learn that the risk to reward ratio is not in their favor.

When you move through a room or along a passageway you will always find a trap if you stand on it, the same if you search a room - but I assume you are referring to finding it without it going off in which case you are correct 1/2 for standard heroes (2/3 for Dwarf) - risk versus reward depends on the number of traps in a room so that balance will vary quest by quest, much the same as searching varies in terms of time wasted versus risk with the existing rules and quests.

With regards to searching furniture separately, I'm still not sure but options are;

1. Room search covers all furniture - implied in the original rules but the chest in corridor scenario does muddy the waters
2. Room search covers all furniture apart from chest - what is special about a chest, perhaps a room search reveals that the chest is locked and is therefore excluded from the search and must be handled separately, whether picked or forced - see my House Rules below in signature (in which case other containers could also be locked and therefore handled differently...what about the Tomb - need assistance to open that one, if you dare!)
3. Room search covers all furniture apart from containers (chest, cupboard, tomb and drawers in Sorceror's table and Alchemist's workbench) - logically this makes more sense than 2 but how often will a cupboard contain anything, are we wasting time...
4. Room search excludes all furniture - takes longer and in most cases would be fruitless, also quest description can cover furniture when detailing treasure or hidden items in a room such as 'In the fireplace you find a small bag containing a moonstone' or 'pushing on the bookcase you discover a hinged section that hides a door" so no need for option 4 - in my opinion

I think option 2 with the improved narrative offered under option 4 when designing your own quests

[mitchiemasha]

I actually included that idea.

I probably said it earlier.

Technically a trap and a secret door would likely have the same Kind of trigger. If you see wires, a lever, cracks, holes etc. it's likely a trap or a secret door. Pull the lever... oh look it's a trap! Another circumstance... oh look it's a secret door! Remember Goonies, the trap was a secret door.

I see a treasure search as simply spending the action to go and pick it up or rummage through what ever happens to be in the room but not represented, visually in the game. If a hero does this the first turn, it's a quick mindless attempt to grab, monster might be in pursuit. If the Hero does it his second turn or after another Hero has searched for traps or secret doors, it's took longer, a more cautious, we've checked the room for anything suspicious, now go pick that gem off that alter.

I have no idea why they split them up in the US version. Perhaps to reinforce a group sticking together, splitting up a group and having 3 searches really slows the game down. The temptation for a group to split needs to be greater, the temptation to make that fatal mistake, not less.

[Daedalus]

Traps and secret doors need to be combined.

I actually included that idea. It obviously removes the risk of traps when searching for secret doors, but saves time, adds a touch of realism, and further simplifies the rules....

I actually included that idea.

I probably said it earlier.

Technically a trap and a secret door would likely have the same Kind of trigger. If you see wires, a lever, cracks, holes etc. it's likely a trap or a secret door. Pull the lever... oh look it's a trap! Another circumstance... oh look it's a secret door! Remember Goonies, the trap was a secret door...

Though secret doors and traps could have the same kind of trigger, the NA Instruction Booklet describes these two kinds of triggers differently. On p.17 under Action 4--Search for Secret Doors:

...These doors are concealed in a variety of ways, including sliding panels and pivoting bricks.

They are wall-based triggers. In contrast, the description changes under Action 5--Search For Traps:

...If, as a Hero, you move onto a square that contains a pit, falling block or spear trap, you will automatically spring the trap, possibly suffering body damage.

A treasure chest or piece of furniture may also contain a trap. If you search for treasure without first searching for traps, you will spring the trap....

These are either floor triggers or furniture triggers.

I have no idea why they split them up in the US version. Perhaps to reinforce a group sticking together, splitting up a group and having 3 searches really slows the game down. The temptation for a group to split needs to be greater, the temptation to make that fatal mistake, not less.

You could be right about wanting to keep the Heroes together--that sounds NA rules to me. However, my NA experience didnt' necessarily show slowing things down accomplished that. Instead, it created more opportunity for impatience and tended to promote risk-taking errors within the longer list of things to coordinate. More searches with occasional reward (dull) were more likely to be overlooked in favor of quick battle and treasure (fun.)

As indicated by the trigger excerpts above, I think the NA version separates the searches because they usually apply to separate locations--a wall or a not-wall. In rooms at least, searching walls doesn't usually include floor squares or squares containing furniture.

Corridors remain more problematic, as secret doors may be on the same wall that contains a spear trap. The triggers are still separate: either a secret-door wall piece that reveals a door or a trap floor-trigger that must be found before a remove trap action is possible. The separate searches reflect these separate rules-regulated outcomes. To me, an NA player, this makes sense as a dungeon-crawl flavor win. If I were an EU player accustomed to combined searches, no doubt I'd continue that streamlined play-style.

[Zeus]

in an attempt of adding some realism without really making the game more complex, I separated the three search types (treasure, secret doors and traps) into separate actions. No doubt some of you already saw this coming (I know I should have ), but this bogged down the game way too much - every new room or corridor was a default "search for traps - search for secret doors - (room only) search for treasure". And the search for traps more often than not didn't find anything anyway.

So we went the opposite way, and are now playing it like this (we came up with this on our own, but some of these ideas were mentioned in this topic already):

Searching for traps is no longer required. Whenever a hero enters a square or opens a chest with a trap, he has to roll to see whether he spots it in time (the roll is a Mind test, ie roll equal to or less than his Mind). If the Mind test fails, he didn't spot the trap and it goes off, ending his turn. If the Mind test succeeds, he spotted the trap in time, and now has a choice to try to disarm (counts as an action; needs an Agility test; success means the trap is disarmed and removed, failure means it goes off), avoid (needs an Agility test; leaves the trap, but doesn't count as an action; hero can continue past the trap), or step back and leave it to another hero.

The Dwarf can count his Mind and Agility as 5 for the purpose of these tests.

Searching. Basically a search is standing in a certain spot and scrutinizing the walls and floors for any irregularities. When searching a room, the Evil Wizard indicates the location of any treasure and secret doors, but the doors aren't actually opened yet (they need to be opened just like regular doors), and the hero doesn't yet receive the treasure (he has to move to the relevant square, and only then can pick it up or, in the case of no special quest-supplied treasure, draw a treasure card). When searching a corridor, it is only for secret doors, which EWP reveals up to a distance of 10 squares from the searcher in one direction.

This way, there is no question of how the hero found a secret door past numerous traps or a side corridor filled with monsters (I liked the solution I read in this topic that a hero would automatically move to the first square with a trap or around the corner of a monster, however as noted if the hero already moved before doing the search, this would move him way past his max movement).

I'm actually considering changing the treasure search as well. Basically there would be no hidden treasure, so no need for determining when to give it to the hero, or where to place it in the room. Instead, each room with any treasure (EWP's disgression i guess) would just have a treasure chest, which would either contain the quest-supplied special treasure (including nothing, like some chests in the official adventures have), or if there's none, a treasure card is drawn when the chest is opened (which is a separate action - not sure anymore whether this is official in the EU or US version or not at all ). Again, this way it is clear where the hero is at the time of triggering a wandering monster or trap (he's right next to the chest with the trigger, rather than squares away from it).

Agility by the way is a stat I added to differentiate a bit better between the different heroes and some of the actions. It started mostly because I didn't like the Dwarf moving just as fast as the Elf, but it quickly got used for more and more stuff . It is kinda like a mix of Dexterity and Lightfootedness (sorry if that's not a word, not a native speaker ), and is used for movement (instead of 2 dice, it's 1 die + Agility, to bring down the extreme cases of 2 or 12 movement and Dwarf being faster than Elf), disarming and avoiding traps, jumping into or across pits and chasms and so on.

Sorry for the long first post, I tend to ramble on when I'm enthusiatic !

[Bareheaded Warrior]

In terms of the OP and focussing for a moment on the official rules (as opposed to any homebrew improvements).

Hello all I had a question I was hoping you could answer. How do you go about enforcing the search rules in the corridors outside the rooms? Like how do you define the length of a hallway and do you allow the searching of treasure. I allow searching for traps and doors since in some scenarios hidden doors have to be found to progress; but searching for treasure doesn't sit right with me for some reason.

It depends on what edition you are using. OP has British English and Morcar, so I'll assume SE rules.

Searching for Treasure in passageways IS allowed under SE rules, see page 4 under Search – The Binding Topic

However under NA edition rules searching for treasure in corridors is NOT allowed.

In terms of defining a passageway (or corridor) I think that is missing from both editions but there is a reference to passageways/corridors being straight so I would go with this earlier comment.

I play that you search corridors for your entire line of sight (ignoring models) but only in one direction: north-south or east-west.
So if you stand in the corner of the map and want to search you have to say in which direction you are searching.
If a corridor is blocked off you only search in the part of the corridor where you are.

With reference to Polishing the Second Edition I would suggest adding some text similar to that from Goblin-King into the appropriate place in the rulebook, any suggestions for the exact text?

[The Admiral]

Hello all I had a question I was hoping you could answer. How do you go about enforcing the search rules in the corridors outside the rooms? Like how do you define the length of a hallway and do you allow the searching of treasure. I allow searching for traps and doors since in some scenarios hidden doors have to be found to progress; but searching for treasure doesn't sit right with me for some reason.

We've never allowed treasure searches in corridors, right back to 1989. Like you, it didn't seem right. I keep corridor searches simple. You search the entire corridor up to a blocked tile/wall. If you are at a junction you must state which direction you are searching. I know finding a secret door beyond trap isn't right, but in this case I can't be bothered with the extra realism, which isn't like me.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

And suggestion for the revised text received and implemented

Agreed changes:

* HQ SE Polished Rulebook.docx (Book of Exploration): Added the text in italics - Passageways may be one or two squares wide and are straight. Passageways that go around corners are considered as separate passageways with one or two shared squares.

* HQ SE Polished Rulebook.docx (Book of Searching): Added the following text - If they are standing on a square shared between two passageways, then they must declare which of the two passageways they are searching.