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Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Quests

Discuss Quests, Cards, Monsters etc, from the Barbarian Quest Pack: The Frozen Horror.

Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Quests

Postby Kurgan » December 23rd, 2021, 3:32 pm

I emailed this to customer care... we'll see what they say. I hope others will express similar concerns to them on the channels they follow for Avalon Hill and Hasbro ("Zargon") on Twitter and Instagram places I don't frequent) or even message the designers directly.

Hello Hasbro,

I am very concerned about the imminent re-remake and release of classic packs "Hero Quest" "Barbarian Quest Pack: the Frozen Horror" and "Elf Quest Pack: Mage of the Mirror" (from 1992) and their potential negative impact to the community and the brand.

Why? Aren't these the most sought-after North American releases of all time, guarenteed to make tons of money in pre-orders in record time? Don't these packs regularly sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars in Ebay even in used condition?

I'm not saying these should not be released, and I'm sure this will be no problem for those who only wish to play with the miniatures or re-sell the products on ebay. But the majority will want to open the box and play, and when they do, they will be hit almost immediately with some issues we've known about for three decades.

Here is the problem and this is an open secret that the HeroQuest fan community has known for decades... these quests are "broken." That is, they clearly did not recieve adequate playtesting.

Despite their big ideas, the difficulty in them is extreme. We have in our communities documented numerous examples of errors...

1) Treasure chests surrounded by trap tiles (this is not how traps work... an orange treasure chest has a trap that triggers if it is searched without first disarming the trap, because there is NO mechanic for walking up to the chest in order to open it being required to obtain the contents inside). This error crops up in the first three quests of the Barbarian quest pack for example.

2) Numerous examples of "unmarked" treasure chests. The Elf pack is notorious for this. A treasure chest is surrounded by powerful monsters and is not marked, meaning the player must draw a treasure card. This seems to be an oversight.

3) Unused Artifacts. Yes it is true that players can be inspired to use whatever assets are found in order to make their own adventures, but the Elf Quest Pack grants the Elven Bracers (similar to the Barbarian pack's "Amulet of the North") granting 2 body points and 1 mind point. Yet it is NEVER given to the Elf in any of the quests, nor can it be found by searching. Fans have suggested giving it as a reward for completing the first (or third) Solo quests... or else placing it in one of the many unmarked treasure chests. Similarly the Armband of Ice is never granted in the Barbarian Quest Pack.

4) Impossible monsters. The Yeti is a creature that if it does any damage to a hero (and it is not a weak monster!) it automatically grabs the hero in a "hug" that deals 2 Body Points of damage every turn. Worse, the Hero cannot escape from it UNLESS the monster holding him is killed (the Yeti cannot defend while in the hold). This is a tough situation in the group quests, but the first Solo quests where the Barbarian fights alone, he has a good chance of facing a Yeti very early! Either remove the Yeti, or provide an opportunity for the Barbarian to be joined by a mercenary to "protect his back." Additionally the Polar Warbear makes two attacks per turn, and heroes can only defend once. It is unclear if this means the second attack is always unblockable or if a "good" heroic defense roll can cover skulls from both attacks. This is a very powerful monster. Next, the Ogres have 10 body points, which is a very high amount meaning a very long quest is in store since multiple instances of them appear though this is less of a problem compared to the Yeti.

5) High Frustration. The Solo Quests are billed as being intended for "new heroes" that is base level heroes, who don't have saved up gold, potions, or extra equipment and artifacts... only their starting gear. Worse yet, it is implied that brand new players to Hero Quest should undertake these missions in order to "catch up" to the other heroes. While it is true that the Solo quests in these two packs do offer opportunities for new weapons, armor, potions, and even Artifacts... the difficulty is extreme and most players will be killed 90-95% of the time, forcing them to repeat the quest over and over, making them much less likely to want to play with the others. This is in contrast to the relatively easy "beginner" level quests found in second and third Dave Morris HeroQuest novels (Screaming Spectre and Tyrant's Tomb.. albeit under the UK rules).


6) No Mercenaries for the Elf. The Elf Quests are almost as difficult as the Barbarian Quests and yet there are no mercenaries to be found, except in one or two cases where enemy elves can become allies. As such the ability to hire mercenaries or have additional reinforcements for these quests may be warranted to avoid the dreaded TPK ("Total Party Kill") being a frequent thing.


We're not asking for "easy" quests. We're not asking for the legacy of HeroQuest and history to be erased. But I think without some kind of disclaimer, errata, or helpful list of (community approved) suggestions for these two packs WILL result in a fan backlash online in terms of these which could hurt the brand, the franchise and future HeroQuest endeavors and even faith in the company itself from the customer standpoint.

I beg whomever is working on these remakes, whether at Hasbro or Avalon Hill to please do their research to see that fans have found work-arounds for these problems to make the quests playable and even enjoyable. Buyers shouldn't be forced to track us down after they buy the product to get the answers that should have come from the company that released it.

Sincerely:
A concerned fan,

Kurgan


Perhaps something like "Dear HeroQuest owner: We appreciate your continued interest in our new and legacy products. The following is a faithful re-creation of the Barbarian Quest Pack: The Frozen Horror" originally published in 1992 in North America. Due to time and budgetary constraints of the time, this product was not adequately play-tested to our exacting quality standards. As such here are the following suggestions in order to achieve a balanced playing experience: (insert suggestions here like removing the Yeti or adding mercenaries, additional potions, put stuff into the chests like missing Artifacts, flag the traps properly, etc).

Edit: Great news, "Into the Northlands" free online quest by Doug Hopkins was recently released and includes an attached errata. It gave many great suggestions and some now artifacts to make things work better. I sent a follow-up email to Hasbro CS in response.
Last edited by Kurgan on July 9th, 2022, 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby moktira » December 23rd, 2021, 6:30 pm

Good luck but I wouldn't get your hopes up!!
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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby Kurgan » December 23rd, 2021, 7:59 pm

Can't say we didn't warn them! Asking for your help though... maybe if we communicate the same message through their social media they'll see it's not just some crank but a widespread understanding.


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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby therealshrek » December 23rd, 2021, 8:09 pm

While I agree that these two quest packs had issues suggesting they had little if any play testing,
this has a very serious under tone to it. Reading it , it sounds like you want them to either fix it,
or not make it at all.

Personally, I would rather see it reproduced exactly as it is than have it passed up.
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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby Kurgan » December 23rd, 2021, 8:19 pm

therealshrek wrote:While I agree that these two quest packs had issues suggesting they had little if any play testing,
this has a very serious under tone to it. Reading it , it sounds like you want them to either fix it,
or not make it at all.


No, I say the exact opposite in fact (please read it again). And it's coming out no matter what (probably already finished). I'm saying if they release it without either a fix or suggested fixes, it may ruin the whole program of rebuilding the HeroQuest brand. I want them to re-release everything, actually, but how disappointed would you be if this was the last release for another few decades? |_P

Instead of leaving a few people to look online for the errata they should put it in the box, if it's not too late already.


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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby therealshrek » December 23rd, 2021, 8:24 pm

Hence the very negative outlook I mentioned. Heroquest has a big following and a LOT of people who never had access to those
expansions, and most people know the flaws at this point even if they never got their hands on them.

For new players who get hooked, they will learn just like we did the first time, and it didnt scare any of us away.
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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby j_dean80 » December 23rd, 2021, 8:41 pm

I kind of like the Packs, flaws and all.
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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby Fallensaviour » December 23rd, 2021, 11:59 pm

j_dean80 wrote:I kind of like the Packs, flaws and all.


Same here.

Just give me a faithfully recreated frozen horror.A couple of tweaks sure but if not that’s okay I still buying…lol


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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby Sinned » December 24th, 2021, 5:14 am

I know about the Frozen Horror leak....but what evidence is the that the Elf quest pack will be coming (soon)?


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Re: Open Letter to Hasbro/Avalon Hill Re: Barbarian/Elf Ques

Postby Kurgan » December 24th, 2021, 5:37 am

What "proof" do I have? I don't have any more info that any of you do. They've been very coy and tight-lipped about things, but it seems pretty obvious what they intend to do, starting with sharing their intentions regarding the last North American release.

It's sheer speculation that they plan to remake EQP, "soon." For all we know they won't make any more after this, if it bombs, hence my concerned letter. They don't have to worry about hardcore diehard fans who'll buy everything and fix it themselves. My point is if they want to expand to a wider market, who won't be so forgiving, they need to be pro-active on a product with known defects. I can remember a time when I was accused of downplaying potential flaws in the remake's Mythic tier content, and criticized (legitimately) for making the excuse that fans can just fix it themselves... the message being that a product should be able to stand on its own quality without needing amateurs to get it up to snuff. True or not, most people won't bother, and that hurts the bottom line.

We've heard time and again that HeroQuest will consist of remakes of classics and new material. With the old material there are only so many candidates for what's next... EQP (10 quests), ATOH (5 quests), WOM (7 quests), Dark Company (1 big four part quest), Adventure Design Kit (a template kit with one unfinished sample quest on the back cover), Marvel Winter Special (1 quest), David Morris' novels (2 quests). I'd love it if they remade the Japanese HeroQuest, but what are the odds of that?

Hasbro had Avalon Hill write 39 new quests for the Remake (37 in the Mythic box +2 free ones over the past year). If this is meant to be an active brand that's going to last for years to come, I'm okay with them not cranking out new material year after year. There are many ways they could maintain a loyal fanbase and still make a profit, like running ads, contests, subscriber based community content support, and just keeping the product on store shelves like so many other popular board games. They don't have to be just like Gamesworkshop. But, if they release an expansion and it turns away too many new customers, they may be forced to re-think the whole thing. It won't make any difference for us, because we've been fans for three decades without any new products being made, but we're a tiny fraction of the potential customers they want.

I hope people read what I wrote and see what I'm actually saying. You can have it both ways... you can have a new copy of the Frozen Horror "warts and all" AND have a tutorial essentially on fixing it for the average person who is just going to buy it and not become a part of our community begging for help but would otherwise decide this brand is no longer for them, and vote with their wallet for Hasbro to stop investing in the legacy material.

I'd rather see HeroQuest become a mainstream product again, as opposed to some kind of pulse exclusive that sells a few thousand copies a year to a small niche of collectors. The majority of HeroQuest fans never got to own EQP/BQP, much less play them and remember them fondly like we remember the base set, KK & ROTWL. The ruination of nostalgia thus isn't really the factor here, is it? But that doesn't have to be, because an official published errata and a fix-it guide inside the box can please everyone with minimal effort, so that's my pitch to Hasbro. If you're sure I'm wrong and the general public will keep buying no matter what the quality, then you'll have nothing to worry about. Maybe their strategy of relying upon social media to market HeroQuest will serve them well, and YeOldeInn and BoardGameGeek will replace their customer service department? If so, I prefer direct deposit. ;)

There's an old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, some of HeroQuest was broke, and if too much of the product is broke, it can lead to the brand becoming broke...

Given past precedent, we can already expect that the art style of the miniatures will be different. But we can also expect that the layout of the quests will be identical, including the errors.

Here's another thought, for those who are afraid of the idea that they could "fix" the errors in Frozen Horror prior to release, officially... if it's okay to release a broken product, because customers can just go to the fan community to get the fixes... why not release a bug-fixed, play-tested product, and customers can still go to the fan community to see the old version and break it again to be more like the old version? The casual consumers will get a satisfactory game, and the diehard fans can have something that's more warty? Remember, I'm not talking here about the Game System, or Kellar's Keep or Return of the Witch Lord. I'm talking about The Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror. Most people have no clue what those things are, other than they might have heard they are rare and valuable expansions they never got to see outside of an old flier. They may thus have no expectations, other than that they will compare it to the quality of what they already own.


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