Not waking the Witch Lord

[JasonMCM]

Has anyone ever had quest 12 finish successfully without the witch lord being awoken?

In a different discussion about secret doors it was mentioned that they only ever led to secret treasure rooms or quest objectives, so I was looking through the quest book to confirm/disprove that assertion. While doing so I noticed that you 'could' get back to the stairs without going through the witch lord's room.

Just curious. (I know that when I played I would explore every nook and cranny of every level so I never had this happen to me.)

[knightkrawler]

The Barbarian was successful but not without encountering the Witch-Lord and being under the Control spell first. The dude simply stood invincibly in the way of the other three heroes who were cut off in the upper right corridor section. I posted our story here somewhere.
I'll never forget that quest.

[LurchBrick]

It happened to me during a game I ran years ago. I had to make up another reason for the heroes to go back there. I used the old "Bad guys take up residence in Barak Tor" trick to get the heroes to go back and ensured they had to break through the Witch Lord's tomb to get out again.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I hadn't noticed that before despite having played this Quest about 4-5 times over the decades, possibly the error is in the US version only as I have only played that a couple of times, but yes it happened to me recently, I realised just as the Barbarian had just discovered the secret door leading back to the exit but before anyone had opened the door to the Witch Lord's chamber, I just stated 'on the fly' that the secret door was "magically sealed" and couldn't be opened, I think I got away with it but not great!

I think this needs to be flagged up in any future Quest errata.

EDIT: It appears this error was in the UK version also!

[SirRick]

This is something that always bothered me, and it’s strange that this was overlooked, or possibly done on purpose. On a related note, is it possible to find the secret door while in the room with the spiral stairs? It also seems odd the Star of the West was stored there for some reason. You would think it would be in Rogar’s tomb, and not in the Witch Lord’s. Rogar probably never encountered the Witch Lord in his lifetime, so this quest seemed a bit of a stretch story-wise.

I suppose if the heroes do bypass the WL, you could alter the story of Quest 13, to mention Zargon’s minions followed you to Barak Tor, and unsealed the WL at Zargon’s direction. So now Mentor reveals the location of the Spirit Blade, and the story continues as normal.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I'll have a look at this properly when I get some time as both Q12 & Q14 use the same map so I don't want to break something else but...

I'm thinking of moving the Star of the West from the hand of the Zombie in the room marked 'B' (prising it from its cold, dead hands if necessary) and placing it on the Tomb of the Witch Lord (revealed whilst searching that room). Then relocate the secret door in the room marked 'E' into the room with the Witch Lord's Tomb, where the current 'D' appears. Then instead of 'waking the Witch Lord' when you enter that room instead you wake him the instant that the Hero carrying the Star of the West exits the room via the secret door (D).

Obviously that secret door could only be found from inside the room, not from the corridor side, in the same way that I assume/hope that the secret door in its current location could only be found from within Room E and not from the Spiral Stairway room (it doesn't state that but I always assumed that it should have done!)

This also provides some in-game reasoning as to why the Star of the West was left with the Witch Lord, perhaps its power helped keep him entombed at least until some daft Heroes decided to remove it!

[Jabie]

This should do the trick:

https://www.facebook.com/download/48790 ... w8UbM7DncM

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I'm facebook-free so that link doesn't help me!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

In fact there is a second issue with this map: using the secret door in the starting room allows you to bypass most of the quest and achieve the objective and escape without waking the Witch Lord and only having to face two monsters, the Gargoyle and one Zombie!

Whilst I'm sure there are loads of different ways these two issues can be fixed, the way that I can think of that requires the minimal change would be as follows:

Move quest note indicator (B) to the room containing the spiral staircase and change the Quest Note to read "The secret door in this room can ONLY be found from the other side"

Update quest note (D) to start "When you open the tomb you find The Star of the West" then leave a momentary dramatic pause before reading out the original bold text to the players. And change the line "The Witch Lord will be released from his imprisonment when the players enter the room" to read "The Witch Lord will be released from his imprisonment when the Star of the West is removed"

These changes mean that the using the secret door from the starting room cannot be used as a short cut to bypass most of the quest, ensures that achieving the quest objective of retrieving the Star of the West will always awaken the Witch Lord and also provides a narrative as to why the Star of the West is located here, it is (or at least it was) preventing the release of the Witch Lord, oops!

[manaknight14]

In fact there is a second issue with this map: using the secret door in the starting room allows you to bypass most of the quest and achieve the objective and escape without waking the Witch Lord and only having to face two monsters, the Gargoyle and one Zombie!

Whilst I'm sure there are loads of different ways these two issues can be fixed, the way that I can think of that requires the minimal change would be as follows:

Move quest note indicator (B) to the room containing the spiral staircase and change the Quest Note to read "The secret door in this room can ONLY be found from the other side"

Update quest note (D) to start "When you open the tomb you find The Star of the West" then leave a momentary dramatic pause before reading out the original bold text to the players. And change the line "The Witch Lord will be released from his imprisonment when the players enter the room" to read "The Witch Lord will be released from his imprisonment when the Star of the West is removed"

These changes mean that the using the secret door from the starting room cannot be used as a short cut to bypass most of the quest, ensures that achieving the quest objective of retrieving the Star of the West will always awaken the Witch Lord and also provides a narrative as to why the Star of the West is located here, it is (or at least it was) preventing the release of the Witch Lord, oops!

I don't think your first option works, because even if you say the secret door cannot be opened from the stairway room, it's still possible to get the Star of the West from the center room and then take the long way around to the exit and never see the Witch Lord. Besides, I can attest that doing this quest in reverse can lead to a really fun experience.

I think the fact that there is a route that gets back to the stairs without passing through the Witch Lord's room is a feature and not a bug. You have to remember that since the Witch Lord cannot be harmed in this quest, he essentially functions as an immovable object. If the heroes have reached him via the "standard" path and the falling block trap has collapsed behind them, it is possible (if the heroes waste too much time) for the Witch Lord to end up standing in the way of passing through his room, making the quest unfinishable without the alternate route. Even using spells like Pass Through Rock and Veil of Mist to get around him only allows a maximum of two heroes to finish the quest. Having that alternate path available can be a necessity.

If the only concern about the Witch Lord not being encountered is from a narrative perspective, it's very simple to say that even if the heroes never entered his room, the Witch Lord still woke up "off-screen" because people were mucking around in his barrow. Anticlimactic, yes, but it works if necessary. If your concern is more that this quest is dull if it can be completed without an encounter with the Witch Lord, then I think your second option is a good approach. It forces the heroes to at least enter the room and see the Witch Lord waking up, but still leaves them with two paths to the exit afterward.