Where do you disarm a trap from?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The classic edition (second edition) rules state that the disarmer needs to be on a square adjacent to the trap for both the Dwarf and the tool kit user, however…under the First Edition, the location of the disarmer isn’t explicitly stated, but I had always thought, for the reasons below, that the disarmer needed to be on the trigger square (right up until the Second Edition came out and “clarified” the previously fairly clear rule!)

Pit Trap

Q1. If the disarmer is on a square adjacent to the trap and the disarm roll is failed then the trap is triggered and the pit opens, but if the disarmer is on an adjacent square to the trap, then he won’t be affected by the pit opening, so why does the tool kit card say that he loses 1BP?

Falling Block Trap

The Falling Block trap is non-local in the sense that it consists of both a trigger square represented by the falling block icon on the quest map and the square that the effects happen, represented by the adjacent arrow on the quest map

Q2. Does the disarmer need to be adjacent to the trigger square or the square that the block lands?

Q3. Whether it is the square adjacent to the trigger square or adjacent to the square that the blocks lands, then in the vast majority of cases, the disarmer won’t be on the square where the falling block lands, so they won’t be affected by the trap and don’t need to lose any BP?

On a related note…

Q4. The second edition also introduced a limit of one disarm per turn on the Dwarf, but not the Tool Kit user, which seems inconsistent especially considering that other “free actions” looking, opening doors, chest etc remain unlimited for all characters and disarming remains unlimited for all other characters that can do it, i.e. for the Tool Kit user, what is the value of this rule?

EDIT: If it helps the conversation here is the relevant text from the published material

I believe that the Dwarf Character Card and Tool kit card text are identical across both editions and whilst the EW screen text has been tweaked, it appears to be a cosmetic change only.

Note: The strikethrough text was in the 1st edition and removed from the 2nd edition and text in italics was added in the 2nd edition

Pit Trap
Any player character who stumbles into a pit trap will automatically lose one Body point. The player character may move as normal next turn. Characters in a pit may attack and defend, but roll one less die than normal. The pit remains on the board as an obstacle.

You Characters and monsters may attempt to jump across a pit trap. You They must have enough movement left to get across the pit, the square on the other side must also be unoccupied.

Any character or monster miniature who attempts to jump across must roll a combat die. If he rolls a skull he falls into the pit and loses one Body point. If he rolls a shield he is allowed to continue his move. Count the square with the pit as a normal square when counting how far you have moved.

Falling Block
Any character who moves through a falling block trap square will spring trigger the trap. The block will fall into the square marked on the map with an arrow, blocking the way. Any monster or character character or monster in that square must roll three combat dice. The victim must lose one Body point for each skull rolled, and then move to an adjacent unoccupied square. If the victim cannot dive out of the way move to an adjacent square, he is killed by the falling block.

Spear Trap
Any player who is caught in a spear trap will lose one Body point if he rolls a Skull on a combat die. The spear trap will only affect the first character to enter the square.

The 2nd edition of the rules of play also contains the following text after a note "The rules for traps given below are repeated on the inside of the screen for reference." but I'll repeat it here as there are actually a couple of differences between this text in the rules of play and the text that appears on the screen (so I've added italics to highlight the differences)

Pit Trap
The pit remains on the board as an obstacle. Any character who stumbles into a pit trap will automatically lose one Body point. Characters in a pit may attack and defend, but roll one less die than normal. They may not search whilst in a pit. The character may move as normal on his next turn

Jumping a Pit
Characters and monsters may attempt to jump across a pit trap. They must have enough movement to get across the pit, counting the pit square as one space. There must be an unoccupied space adjacent to the pit for the miniature to jump onto.
Any miniature who attempt to jump across must roll a combat die. If he rolls a skull he falls into the pit and loses one Body point and may do nothing else until his next turn. Otherwise the miniature may continue its move.

Falling Block
When a character player moves through a square containing a falling block symbol, a block will fall. It will land into the adjacent square marked with the arrow on the Quest map, blocking the way. Any character or monster in the square into which the block falls must roll three combat dice. The victim must lose one Body point for each skull rolled, and then move to an adjacent unoccupied square. If the victim cannot move to an adjacent square, he is eliminated by the falling block.

Spear Trap
Any player who triggers a spear trap will lose one Body point if he rolls a Skull on a combat die. The spear trap will only affect the first character to enter the square. Subsequent characters who move through this square will be unaffected.

Dwarf
You are the Dwarf. You are a good warrior and can always disarm traps that you find. You may remove any visible trap in the same room or passage.

Tool kit
The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find. Roll one combat die. On the roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.
Cost 250 gold coins

[Kurgan]

Are the GM screens different between (1st and 2nd) editions? Or the Hero card text? I guess I hadn't thought about that. Otherwise I would have assumed that in 1st edition just being in the same room/corridor and being able to "see" the trap is enough to be able to disarm it. While you're right that 2nd edition says you have to be "adjacent" (NA players like me are used to announcing the intention to disarm and then moving ON to the square, yes even if that square contains a piece of furniture!).

If the toolkit really has no limits, that would present a scenario in which a Dwarf might want to buy one. Or he can just be patient... I'd rather have a greater chance to disarm a trap than to just get rid of a bunch of them in one turn but with greater risk for each one (unless use his natural ability for the first and risk the others?). Maybe I'm overthinking it.

NA/remake: ON the suspicious square itself.
2nd EU: adjacent to the trap square.
1st EU: within "sight" of the trap.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I've edited my original post and added the relevant text from the different sources as that might help the conversation

Whilst the 1st edition doesn't explicitly state either for the Dwarf or the Tool kit user which square they need to be located on to attempt to disarm the trap, the fact that if the disarm attempt is failed, they trigger the trap and suffer the effects, implies that they must be on the square with the trap icon "the trigger square" (to trigger the trap) and that they must be on the effect square to suffer the effects (the loss of a Body point)*

*This is true for Pit Traps as the "trigger square" and the "effects square" are always the same square (true for most traps), the Falling Block trap is an exception because "the trigger square" and "the effects square" are not the same square, they are two different squares which are adjacent (hence my Q2)

The text on the Dwarf Character Card that you are referring to "You may remove any visible trap in the same room or passage" is correct, the trap has to be visible (so it has to have been searched for and found already) and you need to be in the same room or passage (otherwise you can't see it so it wouldn't be "visible") but whilst it is correct, it may not be complete because if you apply the same logic above to the Dwarf as to the Tool Kit user then he would also have to be on the "trigger square". I do appreciate though that this is an assumption under the 1st edition rules, however under the 2nd edition it does state exactly that, the Dwarf and the Tool Kit users do both have to be on the same square, to disarm the trap, so that assumption seems to have been made by the 2nd edition designers...however the stated square is "adjacent" which leads to my stated questions above.

Whilst I'm trying to avoid getting drawn into similar questions under the remake rules...it is interesting to note that under the remake rules both the Dwarf and the Tool Kit user do need to be on the same square, the "trigger square", which matches the 1st edition, but is different to the 2nd edition.

That said you should note that under the first edition, if you did have to disarm a furniture trap (you don't because they are auto-disarmed when found) then the "trigger square" and the "effects square" are the same square, as per most trap types, and that square is the one in front of the furniture and NOT the square containing the furniture. In the Remake rules the "trigger square" and the "effects square" for furniture traps could be any of the squares in the room as those are the squares that you can get the contents of the chest (through the search for treasure mechanism), and trigger the trap if you don't disarm it first, and suffer the effects of the trap if you trigger it, so strictly speaking you should be able to disarm the furniture trap from any square in the room (which doesn't make a lot of sense to me!)

In terms of my Q4, you are correct in that the limit on the Dwarf's disarm ability imposed under the 2nd edition does lead to an odd situation when a Dwarf equipped with a Tool kit faces multiple found traps in a passage, which rule takes precedent, can he automatically disarm the first using his special Dwarf powers, and then have to fall back on the Tool kit and a die roll to disarm the remaining traps...certainly seems a strange situation.

Under the remake rules are there limits on the Dwarf's ability to attempt to disarm more than one trap per turn (assuming he is successful)?

[Kurgan]

The nice thing about the remake rules is they are basically 99% the same as the NA rules. The main alterations come in terms of what's printed on the cards, vs. what's in the rulebook. Yes, sections are reworded, but the mechanics are the same. Now it's also true that a few things have been clarified in First Light, but mostly once again the only "changes" (the one about Dread Lightning spell was a simple printing error, not intended as a change) occur on the cards. They did add the sell back equipment for half price between quests as an official general rule (originally it was only listed in the expansions or bonus quests) in First Light, but otherwise it's basically the same. Still, occasionally I am curious, so I would have to check if there's anything about Disarming this time that could lead to a different interpretation...

In the EU editions, failure to disarm the trap simply results in 1 BP damage. That to me is not the same thing as being hit by the trap... it's more like you hurt yourself while cleaning it up (because the trap is still removed from the board even IF you "fail").

Meanwhile in the NA edition, yes, failure to disarm is identical to triggering the trap (and since you're on the square itself, you suffer identical effects). Not only that, but this failure (in the NA/make edition) means the trap is NOT removed (some traps automatically remove themselves, the spear trap & swinging blade trap for instance), and the tile (if there is one) persists.

If you want to flavor it up, to suspend disbelief, I could imagine getting your hand stuck in the trap door, having some of the debris fall on your head from the falling block trap, maybe you cut yourself on the edge of the spear as you removed it? You were aware of the trap to begin with, so the effect was diminished, and you still got the job done, just not perfectly cleanly as you intended. Now if it killed you, that sucks, but those are the risks!

Under the NA/remake rules, the Toolkit (or Rogue's bandolier) and Dwarf(or Scout or Explorer)'s natural ability differ only in their odds of success. "Disarming a trap" is an action, so you get one per turn... hence only can disable one trap per turn.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

In the EU editions, failure to disarm the trap simply results in 1 BP damage. That to me is not the same thing as being hit by the trap... it's more like you hurt yourself while cleaning it up (because the trap is still removed from the board even IF you "fail").

Meanwhile in the NA edition, yes, failure to disarm is identical to triggering the trap (and since you're on the square itself, you suffer identical effects). Not only that, but this failure (in the NA/make edition) means the trap is NOT removed (some traps automatically remove themselves, the spear trap & swinging blade trap for instance), and the tile (if there is one) persists.

Not quite, let me try and explain this in a different way, picture the scene, you and I are playing a game of HeroQuest, you are taking the role of the Evil Wizard player and I, the Elf (she is being brave/foolish and deciding to go it alone).

Starting position: The Elf is at the end of the long passage at the bottom of the board and you as the EWP with access to the quest map, can see that four squares in front of the Elf is a square labelled “A” (quest note A) and the next square is labelled “B” (quest note B) which represent a trap, however as the trap at this point in time is a “hidden trap” no marker is put on the board as that would ruin the surprise for our poor Elf.

The Elf rolls and proceeds to move along the passage until she moves onto the square indicated “A” on your quest map at which point you as the EWP state “Stop! You have triggered a trap”, which ends the Elf’s turn and results in you, following the instructions given, placing a marker labelled “B” onto the square indicated “B”.

This marker “B” represents, not a trap, but a feature being placed on the board which cannot be removed, in this example it could be a blocked square marker which as we know cannot be removed and prevents characters, heroes and monsters, from moving onto or through the square.

Now imagine then we rewind the game back to the starting position, but this time the Elf decides on a more sensible approach and uses her action to first search the passage for traps.

In this instance, following your quest notes, you tell the Elf that she has found a trap and place the marker labelled “A” onto the board on the square indicated “A” on your quest notes. This represents the position of the trap that is no longer a “hidden trap” but is now a “found trap”.

The Elf rolls and decides to move onto the trap square to attempt to disarm the “found trap” with her tool kit. Depending on what she rolls on the combat die, there are two possible outcomes.

1) The disarm attempt succeeds
2) The disarm attempt fails

(1) The disarm attempt succeeds, the marker labelled “A” is removed from the board (the trap is removed) and the Elf continues her turn treating the squares as normal squares.

(2) The disarm attempt fails, the trap has been triggered, the marker labelled “A” is removed from the board (the trap is removed), but the effects of triggering the trap take place (exactly as per the example above), so the marker labelled “B” is placed onto the square indicated “B”. This “B” marker represents, not a trap, but a feature being placed on the board which cannot be removed, in this example it could be a blocked square marker which as we know cannot be removed and prevents characters, heroes and monsters from moving onto or through the square.

In both outcomes the trap is removed, as the trap no longer exists, the difference is that a successful disarm removes the trap, a failed disarm triggers the trap, which means that the trap is removed as it is no longer a trap but the effects of triggering the trap, in this instance the placing of the marker “B” onto the square indicated B, representing, not a trap, but a feature being placed on the board which cannot be removed, the blocked square marker, take place in exactly the same way as if the Elf hadn’t searched for traps and had just moved onto the square indicated “A”

The Confusion

The confusion arises for different reasons in both the classic and the remake editions of the game.

Under the classic edition, confusion arises because the same marker is used for both “A” the found trap (the falling block trap marker) and “B” the feature that is placed on the board because of the trap being triggered (the blocked square marker) which is why the component is referred to as “the falling block / blocked square marker”. The same is true for the pit trap / pit marker although that is inconsistently label as “the pit trap marker” rather than the more accurate “the pit trap / pit marker”.

Under the remake edition found traps are pointed out by the EWP but no marker “A” is placed (so no trap markers are required or provided in the game because you don’t place marker for a hidden trap and neither in this edition of the game, do you place a marker for found traps, so none are needed or provided), the players must just to remember the indicated square, but in the case of falling block traps, two different markers are provided to act as marker “B”, the “falling block marker” and the “blocked square” marker, even though they perform exactly the same function in the game. In the case of the pit trap, only one marker, the “pit marker” is provided, which would be clearer, however it is incorrectly labelled as the “pit trap marker” in this edition of the game rather the more accurate term of the “pit marker”. I presume that these were labelled the way that they were, because the pit trap marker, is the marker that is placed because of the pit trap being triggered hence “pit trap marker”, but for me it would be clearer to label a marker by what it represents, a pit, rather than how it got there.

I assume, and it is an assumption and I may be mistaken, that whoever designed the markers for the remake edition back in 1990, was aware of the confusion caused in the Classic edition by the use of the same marker for two different things and decided to create two different markers, one for the falling block trap and one for the blocked square that results from a falling block trap being triggered (or is just placed directly on the board as a feature) but then independently or later the rules around handling this mechanism were changed rendering the new tile redundant.

[Kurgan]

You bring up a lot of interesting things I hadn't thought much about (or at all) before, so this is a great discussion, but...

What benefit would there be in removing the "marker" but presuming the trap is still there? All this would accomplish is requiring the heroes to search a second time for traps to try again to remove it...

In the NA/remake, discovered traps are invisible (the Zargon player simply points at the square and gives a verbal warning... the App places a completely digital "red Zargon skull" on the square, but this is merely to get around the fact that the App is simply a tool for assistance in playing the physical board game; it's no different than when we were kids putting a die or scrap of paper onto the square so we wouldn't "forget" we'd found a trap there at one point). Once a Pit or Fallen block is added, it's permanent.

I don't see a problem with removing these tiles after the fact to actually remove the threat from the board. It makes disarming seem more useful and complete, and it doesn't defeat realism. I think it was Legacy of Sorasil (computer game) that put "boards" over the pit trap holes when you disarm them.

I'm not so sure the new design of the stone tiles in Mike Gray's version is a smoking gun here (though it might have entered their minds for many reasons). Yes, it's nice to have them differentiated even more (similar to renaming the "Trap!" cards to "Hazards" to avoid complaints that there are "no traps in the Trial" but still you can draw these cards from searching in the NA edition), but one could imagine walls being made of rubble in both cases. But yes, a player might be wondering why they can't just clear it out the same way they do a trap (this could be a fun thing for Morcar to compensate for... creating new rooms and passages out of nothing because the heroes opened a pathway... at risk of course, but still did).

Very rarely but some quests have the "trap" tiles already put out and have them represent different things (forgetting if there are any such examples from 1989), or use traps with different mechanics. I don't consider that a problem, because after awhile the players will recognize that each quest is different... and the rules are modified by that specific quest's notes. So if Zargon/Morcar/Grimdead says in this particular quest the stone blocks are monsters that chase you, or pits are healing pools, or the stairs flip over and create a deadly super pit... well, then you just accept it.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

What benefit would there be in removing the "marker" but presuming the trap is still there? All this would accomplish is requiring the heroes to search a second time for traps to try again to remove it...

I've read my previous posts again but I can't see anywhere that I have suggested removing the "marker" if the trap is still there? Did I miss something?

You remove the trap marker if the trap is disarmed successfully (because the trap is gone), if the trap disarm fails then the trap is triggered (so the trap is gone) but the marker remains, representing the feature/hazard that now exists, be that a pit or a blocked square.

How disarming actually works!

I think the confusion around this area in the first edition, is a case of failure to clearly differentiate between the description of the situation in which the Dwarf or Tool Kit user can disarm a trap and the procedure that they need to follow in order to attempt to disarm a trap.

The situation in which an attempt to disarm a trap can be made is the same for both the Dwarf and the Tool Kit user...

You are the Dwarf. You are a good warrior and can always disarm traps that you find. You may remove any visible trap in the same room or passage.

The tool kit enables you to remove any trap that you find.

Note: that both pieces of text are consistent with each other, in that they both use the same word “remove” rather than “disarm” or more accurately “attempt to disarm” and they both specify, using different words, that the trap first has to have been found, has to be visible, has to be represented on the board before you can attempt to disarm (or “remove”) it.

However, this is just a description of the situation in which you can attempt to disarm a trap, how you disarm it is explained once in the rules, on the Tool Kit card and applies equally whether you are a character that isn’t the Dwarf then you can ONLY attempt to disarm a trap if you have the Tool kit, whereas the Dwarf can ALWAYS attempt to disarm a trap because he, uniquely, does not need the Tool kit to do this.

Roll one combat die. On the roll of a skull the trap goes off and you lose one Body point. Once you have rolled the die the trap is removed.

So the Dwarf and a character equipped with the Tool Kit follow exactly the same process when attempting to disarm a trap and for clarity that process is as follows:

A trap must first have been found, by performing a search (for secret doors and traps) action in the same room or passage as the trap, making the trap visible i.e. marker placed on the board.

The Dwarf, always, and any other character only if they have the Tool kit card, must move onto the marked square, and roll one combat die.

Success: If the die shows anything other than skull then the attempt has been successful, and the trap and its marker are removed from the board and the character may continue with their movement, if they have any remaining, and the square now counts as a normal square.

Failure: If the die shows a skull, then the attempt has failed, the trap is triggered. The marker now represents the pit (in the case of a pit trap) located on the same square or (in the case of a falling block trap) the marker must be moved to the adjacent square marked with an arrow and now represents the blocked square caused by the falling block trap being triggered. Follow the respective rules in the traps section for the effects of triggering these traps, including the fact that triggering a trap ends your turn and the effects of falling into a pit includes you losing a Body point.

The modifications to the wording in the 2nd edition appear to be a result of misunderstanding the 1st edition rules, so I would suggest ignoring the instruction to be adjacent to a trap to disarm it and keep the disarm attempt taking place ON the trigger square (as that removes the reason why you would suffer the effect of losing a BP in the case of a Pit Trap) and I would ignore the "automatic" removal of the Dwarf, as that removes the fun involved in a die roll that could go either way and ignore the limit of one trap per turn as it isn't needed, both the Dwarf and a Tool Kit user can continue to attempt to disarm as many traps on their turn, provided that they are successful and they have sufficient movement, in the same way that they can continue to jump as many pits on their turn as they wish, provided that they are successful and they have sufficient movement.

[Kurgan]

I didn't read carefully enough, sorry.

[BlackJax]

I’ve returned to HeroQuest recently having played extensively back in 1999-2001 so am trying to reconcile my understanding of the original version (UK 1989) that I played back in the day (further complicated by the fact that we may well have played rules incorrectly back then and my recollection of what we played may also be faulty!) compared to the new Avalon Hill version, so I’m kind of going back to basics.

If I understand this thread correctly then under the original version (UK 1989) are we saying that searching for and disarming traps works as follows…

1. Search for a trap, as an action, covers the area that you are in (room or passage) and automatically finds all traps within that area.
2. Once a trap has been found, if it has an associated tile then place the tile on the board representing the found trap, if it doesn’t (like a Spear trap) then the trap is automatically rendered harmless.
3. If you are the Dwarf, or another Hero equipped with the tool kit, then you can attempt to disarm a found trap. This is a free action so you can do this as many times during your turn limited only by your movement but failing a disarm attempt will set off the trap and setting off a trap ends your turn, so only one failed attempt is possible.
4. You must move onto the trapped square marked with the tile, roll one combat die, on a roll of a skull the trap goes off/is activated, otherwise you have disarmed the trap successfully
a) The trap goes off, follow the associated instructions based on the trap description (e.g. if a pit trap, then the disarmer has fallen into the pit and loses a BP, if a Falling Block trap, then the trap goes off and the block falls affecting anyone on the indicated square)
b) The trap is disarmed. Remove the trap tile from the board, the square now acts as a normal square, you may continue with your movement.

If this is the case then I think the suggestion to place the trap tile face down when a trap is found makes sense to me, to differentiate between a found trap that can be disarmed and a sprung trap which results in a feature being placed on the board, a pit tile or blocked square tile, that cannot be removed. This has the bonus that if the disarmer doesn’t know whether it is a pit or falling block then they don’t know whether failure will hit them or not…added tension

Q1. Why not follow the same process of placing a face down tile for the Spear trap when found (and for that matter all found traps including furniture traps), then if it is disarmed successfully, it is removed or it goes off?

Q2. If you ignore the Dwarf and a hero equipped with the Tool Kit, what options exist for other heroes and monsters in terms of handling a “found” trap?

[wallydubbs]

If you're disarming a trapped chest, you need to be adjacent to it to disarm the trap. Any other common spear, pit, falling block, stalactite trap, the hero has to announce beforehand that they're disarming the trap and stand on the trap space itself to disarm it. Announcing your intention to disarm gives you chance to disarm the trap before it springs.