Pit traps and crossbows

[Eljanto]

Hi everyone!
I am a game master with a doubt about the "line of sight" rule. Suppose the Barbarian, who leads the group towards some monsters, falls in a pit trap while in a corridor, so that now is fellows heroes are behind him on one side of the corridor, and monsters in front of him on the other side. At that point, can the other heroes shoot to the monsters with the crossbow, so that the arrows will fly "above the head" of the Barbarian, so to say?
From the rule book, the Barbarian is blocking the line of sight; however, you would expect that a human fallen in a hole in the ground has cleared the visual to whoever was behind him.

[QorDaq]

Greetings Eljanto, welcome to the Inn.

Pit Traps are considered to be a "Room" unto themselves (They can even be searched), on the following turn a Hero in a Pit may move normally and "Climb out" of the Trap, so the Barbarian is safe while in the pit.

[Kurgan]

Welcome! It brings up some interesting things... there's the "what seems realistic" argument and the "what does the game strictly allow" argument, so good question.

Being in a pit is a disadvantage. While inside you defend (and attack) with one less. At the same time, the NA edition doesn't normally let heroes attack each other. So if a hero is blocking the LOS of another hero trying a ranged attack then Zargon normally wouldn't allow it.

As an aside, a hero in a pit can be hit by adjacent enemies at a disadvantage and also would be at a disadvantage from being hit by LOS ranged attacks (granted, these are rare for monsters), just like if someone were shooting at him from the doorway leading into the room he was in.

Of course if Zargon wants to homebrew it and say the Pit is actually a safe square, that's his prerogative. The only bonus is that he can search it for treasure unto itself, even if a monster is in another part of the (larger) room, but it could be a "pit" hazard too...

As for it blocking LOS from friendly fire, that's a judgement call as above, similar to how some of us have said "well maybe you can shoot over the dwarf's head" or "maybe you can shoot over the top of the table to the monster on the other side." (Short furniture and short characters)

In the NA rules "obstructed line of sight" exists whereas in the EU rules it's more easily fudged (if somebody is in the same room with you, you can pretty much always hit them). Remember when drawing the "line" between the shooter and the target it doesn't have to go precisely across diagonal squares. If you can plausibly draw a clear line from the center of one figure's base to another, you can hit it, theoretically, even without any homebrew exceptions.

In another MB game, for comparison's sake (Space Crusade), if there is a dispute about LOS, the rulebook actually says to resolve the dispute with a dice roll! Of course in that game most characters have ranged attacks so there are all kinds of situations where it might be vague. You COULD resolve it that way (my "uncommon feat" homebrew rule takes a possible exception with a 50% chance of success).

[Eljanto]

Thanks to you both for the replies! It's nice to know that it is ok and common to homebrew some rules according to roleplaying necessities and personal tastes. That being the case, I think I'll allow to try to shoot through squares occupied by heroes (be they in pit or not). It would also be nice to add some rule to the possibility to shoot by mistake the hero instead of the target, to add drama and tension. For example, the hero with crossbow might shoot anyways, but if the targeted monster gets two more defense dice because the hero in the middle act as a shield, and if the monster is not hit, the hero in the middle gets hit instead.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

It is certainly a good question and the official rules don't provide a solution so homebrew away.

Personally (and I think that I am in the minority here) I see the basic pit trap as a shallow hole - the rules don't specify the depth - more akin to a shallow 'trou de loup' maybe 2-3 feet in depth intended to incapacitate an intruder by spiking his ankles than trap them in a genuine hole in the ground (which wouldn't work if they are under 5 foot square). I'm aware that this contradicts, to a certain extent, the rule that allows it to be searched as a room in itself but I think that is a daft rule for a number of reasons, and a deeper pit that you fall into is also contradicted by the rules that allow you to move out of it automatically on your next turn without any movement penalty so it is broken either way!

A shallow pit (and I have rules for a more traditional 'fall into' type of pit trap) avoids all the complications around LOS over someone in a pit, jumping over someone in a pit, two people occupying a pit and so on. For me HQ is about simplicity, so the simplest option rules

[wallydubbs]

As Zargon you generally get to make a judgement call. Yes, I personally would allow the Crossbow to move past the Barbarian in this case.

The pit depth isn't specified (unless it's a pit of Darkness), but if it's enough of a fall into and hurt, it's deep enough to not obstruct line of sight.
Yeah, Barbarian falls into a bit, even though the game board can't be accurate on the Y axis of depth dimension, I think we can reason around it.

The tougher question, I thought this would pertain to is how do crossbow or archer enemies resolve a pit trap:
1.) Hero is in a pit with a crossbow, I reason he'd still get -1 combat dice.
2.) Suppose the hero is in a pit with monster welding a crossbow down the corridor. Wouldn't the hero being in a pit make it harder for the Elven Archer or Crossbowed Orc to hit his target?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Wallydubbs – questions like the ones you pose are exactly why I have opted for the ‘shallow pit’ interpretation over the alternative (and seemingly more popular) ‘deep pit’ option because it is far simpler and for me one of the merits of HeroQuest is its simplicity (there are plenty more complex games out there some of which are great but if you want to play a simple game then keep it simple!)

Shallow Pit Interpretation

Approximately two-foot-deep hole in the ground, lined with sharpened stakes intended to injure and temporarily incapacitate an intruder.

- Can be moved out of freely on the next turn [official rule that supports this interpretation, no house rule required – simple]

- When in a pit trap you attack and defend with one less die – presumably due to their reduced ability to duck, dodge or generally manoeuvre [official rule that supports this interpretation, no house rule required – simple]

Note: I assume that this reduction in attack dice applies to ranged and thrown weapon attacks also because in HeroQuest rules in general the term “attack” includes these types unless otherwise stated and thematically I imagine that aiming a crossbow or dagger if your lower leg is trapped in a staked hole would be trickier

- Figures in a pit trap block line of sight exactly as usual [simple, no house rule required]

- They can be targeted for ranged, adjacent, diagonal attacks or spells like usual [simple, no house rule required]

- They can cast spells as usual [simple, no house rule required]

- They block movement into and through the square (a figure blocks enemies movement anyway under the base official rules as standard, and friendly movement is based on you steeping aside to let your friend pass, not really an option if your leg is trapped in a staked hole) [this does require a change to the official rules – but only to remove the following unnecessary exception] - Exceptions: When on the stairs or in pit traps, sharing a square is permitted.)

- This interpretation also avoids any need to handle situations where Heroes or Monsters attempt to jump the occupied pit and fail or two combatants are both in the same pit trap do penalties apply when fighting each other, or someone fires at a target in a pit trap and so on.

And finally, I would remove this official rule

As a hero, once in a pit, you may search the pit for treasure or secret doors as if it were a separate room unto itself.

I find the “as if it were a separate room unto itself” phrase causes confusion, is it stating, as some people have taken it, that a pit trap is a separate room unto itself? if that was the case then why have they not included the option to search the pit for traps in the rule above, surely any room can be searched for TRAPS, treasure and secret doors.

Or are they just stating that the pit trap can be treated as a separate room for the purposes of searching for treasure or secret doors only, if so then why didn’t they just drop the “as if it were a separate room unto itself” bit?

I would suggest this rule is also removed in its entirety, it introduces confusion and the ability to search a pit trap for treasure or secret doors doesn’t bring any value into the game that couldn’t be covered in the Quest Notes on the rare occasions that it could be utilised.

[Daedalus]

As Zargon you generally get to make a judgement call. Yes, I personally would allow the Crossbow to move past the Barbarian in this case.

The pit depth isn't specified (unless it's a pit of Darkness), but if it's enough of a fall into and hurt, it's deep enough to not obstruct line of sight.
Yeah, Barbarian falls into a bit, even though the game board can't be accurate on the Y axis of depth dimension, I think we can reason around it.

The tougher question, I thought this would pertain to is how do crossbow or archer enemies resolve a pit trap:
1.) Hero is in a pit with a crossbow, I reason he'd still get -1 combat dice.
2.) Suppose the hero is in a pit with monster welding a crossbow down the corridor. Wouldn't the hero being in a pit make it harder for the Elven Archer or Crossbowed Orc to hit his target?

I go with a 4'x4'x5' deep pit. It's deep enough to get hurt from a fall, but also allows even the 90s 4 foot Dwarf to fight and move out of it.

After laying various figures on their side onto the square spaces, I figured line of sight from the shoulder height of the attacker (origin of crossbow fire and spells) to the center-height of the target (reasoned vertically from A Good Rule of Thumb for line of sight.) I've decided that the penalties for fighting from a pit don't apply to vertical line of sight since it works the same as firing at a partially blocked figure around a corner--no penalties there.

For pits or other instances where verticality comes into play with line of sight, I class figures from the Game System as either Average: the height of a standard Hero (most monsters), Short: shorter than the shoulder height of a Hero (Dwarf and Goblins), or Tall: head and shoulders taller than a Hero (Gargoyle).

A Hero shooting a Crossbow out of a pit has line of sight to any monster adjacent to the pit. Average monsters can be targeted up to 1 square farther away. The tall Gargoyle can be targeted even 2 squares farther back.

Line of sight for a short Dwarf firing a Crossbow from a pit is more restricted. He may target any monster in a square adjacent to the pit. The tall Gargoyle may be targeted up to 1 square farther away.

Farther monsters firing at a Hero in a pit are at a 1-square disadvantage since the pit already blocks most of the Hero's figure. Any monster may fire at any Hero in a pit from an adjacent square. From 1 square farther away, the tall Gargoyle (but no other monsters) may target average Heroes in a pit, but not the short Dwarf.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The pit depth isn't specified (unless it's a pit of Darkness), but if it's enough of a fall into and hurt, it's deep enough to not obstruct line of sight.

Each to their own, of course, but for me the shallow pit keeps it simple. If you google a punji stick/stake and a trou-de-loup, you can see that it doesn't have to be the depth that does the damage!

A shallower pit interpretation is supported by the ease in which heroes can extricate themselves, automatic and free of charge on their next turn, and means that you don't need to create exceptions that don't exist today to the line of sight rules, the combat in a pit rules, the shooting from or into a pit and so on, (or worry about the average height classifications of each figure, perhaps even rolling for each particular monster encountered to determine whether that individual is a particularly squat member of the Gargoyle species or a particularly lanky Goblin...) the only clarification that I would add is that you cannot attempt to jump an occupied pit which I think is the standard rule in the classic (second) edition although it may not be clearly spelled out.

So for me, I would stick to the rulebook for simplicity and rule that figures in a pit do block line of sight, and I certainly wouldn't allow missile attacks through heroes (are they are made of a different material than monsters!?)

And whilst I know that appearances can be deceptive, it looks shallow to me: Pit Trap