Ye Olde Inn

Like many I am using the US rules but have ported some items over from the UK/EU rules as having played with that for decades it just didn’t feel the same without them. One of the items that I have ported over is the Holy Water “potion”, text as below

32.13 Holy Water

Discarded and forgotten in a corner of the room you find a vial of Holy Water. You may use the Holy Water instead of attacking. It will kill any undead creature: Skeleton, Zombie, Mummy. Discard after use. This may only be used once. Do not return this card to the deck.

(Additional treasure item from EU version, reworded to bring in line with US potion text)

Having now played with the US rules and specifically this object for a while I have a couple of questions/suggestions?

1. What effects on undead that aren’t in the list

For example, the Doomguard in ROTWL, logically must choose between three options
a) no effect – strict interpretation,
b) add them to the list of those affected – minor tweak,
c) something else.

If c), should this be consistent across the board such as changing the effect of the ‘potion’ to a 3-combat dice attack with no defend although exceptions can be made for bosses in the Quest notes as usual such as the Witch Lord himself.

The 3-combat dice attack with no defend works thematically as one drawback of the original under US rules is that it just became a ‘hang onto it until you see a Mummy’ device, using it on the lesser monsters was an overkill as its “instant-kill” effect (or “instant-destroy” technically as they are dead anyway) guaranteed a Mummy down. 3-combat dice attack with no defend means that it could, with a fair roll still destroy a Mummy but with no guarantees and so ‘wasting’ it on a Zombie or Skeleton is less of a tactically bad option.

2. Can it be thrown and/or used diagonally or both?

The text states, ‘instead of attacking’ and in the absence of any other information I assume that attacking refers to adjacent close combat attack (it usually does, although ranged attacks, are covered under the Hero action – ATTACK). I think that is correct in terms of the strict interpretation, but does anyone have any thoughts, ideas, or experience in allowing Holy Water to be used on diagonally adjacent targets and/or it being thrown at distant targets as part of the throwing weapon rules (no recovery obviously)?

The closest thing to the Holy Water (formerly an EU only treasure) to me, is a Spell Scroll. It replaces an attack (uses an action) and can be used by anyone, as opposed to a potion which can be used by anyone virtually at any time and doesn't constitute an action. Yes, Spell Scrolls don't exist in the EU game from which it came, but they function pretty much identically, although Scrolls don't come from the Treasure Deck but are special treasures.

My comments are focused on the NA edition, whether classic with homebrew or the Remake edition that incorporates it, so take my comments in that spirit.

It strictly, literally says it will destroy one skeleton, mummy or zombie and that was probably the original intention to do no more or less.

You could read this to mean it won't work on "special" undead characters. It was probably intended that a simple "special" (quest notes) undead character like a mummy with an extra defend die or something would still qualify for instant destruction, but not a unique named character that had some kind of undead quality to it (like the Witch Lord and his generals) for which it would have no effect.

Whether it impacts Chaos Warriors or not is a matter of homebrew opinion, but I don't generally treat them as undead (in my De-magicified world they are more like chemical mutants so maybe it will work on them, heh). In the base game Chaos ("Dread" in the Remake) Warriors are simply evil humans who may or may not be endowed with Chaos magic in the form of spells or enchanted weapons. Doomguard, I thought were simply elite level Chaos Warriors, not like skeletons clad in armor.

In my own homebrew using the NA as a base, I change it to say it just does 4 BP damage to an undead, so it would work on "special" quest characters that were undead. And yes, the old debate about the Witch Lord here I tend to side with those to say he's "something else" and so isn't killed by it (though maybe it doesn't make him happy either). Despite the skull faces, the Witch Lord and his generals don't have zero mind points like your typical undead (although the Remake did give ol' WL a special figure in the Mythic tier that was undead color, go figure). There was a big debate on the forums over what he was, but generally it seems people were thinking he's in some other category and according to the basic rules that seems to be the case, though I like the idea that Holy Water has some effect on him, just not like on the low level ghouls.

Can you throw it? Yes. Using the "Spell Scroll" comparison above. You can use a "Spell" on any target you can see for those that aren't "use on yourself and that's it." So emphatically yes, any target you can "see" whether adjacent, diagonal or long range. Under NA rules that still requires strict Line of Sight (in the EU it's even easier to hit someone with it, pretty much anyone in the room is guaranteed even if it's silly like they're behind a bookcase).

Now if you really want to make it more powerful, see the official PC versions of HeroQuest from 1991 where Holy Water didn't kill just one undead, but ALL the Undead in the Room or section of corridor with you when used!

The first mod I made to the Remake Edition was to reprint the Holy Water (and Potion of Speed) Card(s) so that they were specifically treasures, rather than Equipment. To me, you don't buy Holy Water (can't buy a blessing!) but you could buy the fancy bottle I suppose... and while there are opportunities I take to give away Equipment, having the cardback that says "Treasure" makes it blend in with the rest of the deck so it's still a surprise when you uncover it! (before printing the cards, I just had fake backs in sleeves showing treasure and slipped those and some potions in there as well).

Having one Holy Water in the Treasure Deck per quest isn't a big deal. Where I created a situation was with my Paladin character who generates a Holy Water vial every quest, but since this is the NA rules and you don't lose them if you don't use them, he can stockpile them, meaning he can clean up ROTWL if you'll let him! I also wanted to give the Cleric the ability to use a mace as a "holy water sprinkler" by combining it with the HW to hit multiple targets (splitting up the damage) so making it close to the (bit OP) PC edition. I suppose a plot device could always be introduced where the character has to donate his stockpile to help the war effort elsewhere or something.

And as for the "hang onto it until you see a Mummy" I think if you've got a weak attack like the Wizard, it could be worthwhile to use on a Zombie or even a Skeleton under the right circumstances. Yes, he's got spells but he may be saving those for some other big guy expected.

As Zargon, as a courtesy, I would warn the Hero if it would have no effect on a target rather than letting them use it and say it was "wasted." In the PC game if you use it and there are no undead monsters in the room/passage it is wasted. But the PC is kind of an odd duck in terms of how a lot of things work.

PS: I do like the idea that a "boss" character changes the instant destroy to a "roll for damage no defense" thing. So maybe the Witch Lord would get 4 attack dice against him but they could "miss."

Next question: would you allow it to do damage to Werewolves? (EQP)

Thankfully I don't have werewolves to worry about.

I have always, up until just now, considered Holy Water to be a special type of potion, but you are correct, it does more closely resemble a spell scroll - magic, single use, takes an action to use

However, I'm not sure that necessarily helps with the ‘throw it question’ as, whilst you could literally throw a spell scroll at an enemy, I'm not expecting it to carry much weight (boom, boom), the spell scroll is held in the hands and the spell released, same as any other method of casting, whereas our vial of Holy Water is actually being hurled at an opponent to smash and liberally shower them with offensive holiness.

That said it feels much more dynamic to be able to hurl a Holy Water vial, affected by any range limitations on throwing things that your house rules may have imposed, and provided you have LOS (or can 'SEE') the opponent (carefully avoiding these minefields of discussion)

The Witch Lord aspect doesn't particularly concern me as it states at various points exactly what he is affected by ‘Spirit Blade only’, ‘Spirit Blade and Fire Magic’ and so on, no mention of Holy Water so no problem there (I think the Witch Lord debate was strictly around whether he counts as Undead for the purposes of the Spirit Blade’s extra attack die against Undead - but then I suspect there have been many, many such debates)

In terms of the types that it effects, yes strict interpretation is as listed (and I don't consider Dread (look at me using the "new" terminology) Warriors to be Undead - although now you mention it...) but to take your suggestion of 4BP, I prefer the variety of a roll but perhaps 4AD, there is as you say only one of them available, so maybe not OP but I think I prefer 3AD as this is more broadly equivalent to the power of something like the Genie

It's a holy hand grenade (I'm brought back to Castlevania on the NES, though I guess that didn't have great distance). They even made the new artwork depict it like a little thing that could be tossed like a projectile (imaging that vs a close range dousing). Agreed about the funny image of the spell scroll being activated and the magic it generates launched as opposed to folded into a paper airplane and thrown at the teacher's monster's head when they're not looking.

This reminds me of the other potion usage which uses language referring to handing a potion to an adjacent hero, drinking the potion (not pouring it on them). So yes, the HW is kind of in a class by itself, but now we deal with it because it's integrated into the Remake (though many of us have been porting it into the NA rules for years now).

Yeah, its just as unclear in the NA RotWL set (see Quest #2 -- The Cold Halls):

The first Hero to search for treasure in this room will find a vial of Sacred Water behind a large book in the cupboard. This liquid maybe used to destroy one regular Skeleton, Zombie or Mummy.

(Mind you, the name change was due to real-world politics at the time, namely the Satanic Panic)

For me, as the Evil Wizard Player, its:

1) A -- As Doomguards and Spirit Riders are special monsters, the Heroes should earn that victory. So go out and kick their bony supermodel booties!

2) While I can see how an insta-kill water-bomb would require going into melee-range for an element of risk and game-balance (as if that was ever a thing with HQ), I like to think of it as a Ball of Flames spell for "basic undead" in that you should be able to attack a target that you can "see". Then again, I'm used to holy water in D&D and video games.

By the way, the Holy Water card (along with Potion of Speed) is in the new HQ game as an Equipment card instead of the Treasure deck. It now costs 400 (Potion of Speed is half that) and makes note that it requires an action, but it is still unclear on attack range.

I had forgotten about this change (no mention of Holy Water in the EU Cold Halls ROTWL quest, but "Sacred Water" in the NA). Though why someone would think "holy" was bad but "witch lord" was okay (were the editors servants of chaos?). Still, it's nice to have something of it appear in the US version of the game, even if it was "watered down" (sorry, I couldn't resist).

To me the Holy Water card belongs in the treasure deck like before. That's one solid homebrew rule I'm using whether I'm playing classic or remake. Then again if I was using my Paladin character, the Holy Water vials could be piling up and the ones in the treasure deck might not be needed at all!

Kurgan wrote:I had forgotten about this change (no mention of Holy Water in the EU Cold Halls ROTWL quest, but "Sacred Water" in the NA). Though why someone would think "holy" was bad but "witch lord" was okay (were the editors servants of chaos?). Still, it's nice to have something of it appear in the US version of the game, even if it was "watered down" (sorry, I couldn't resist).

Its stupid and arbitrary. Even then, companies knew that moral watchdogs are a hysterical and irrational lot. TSR Inc. took the brunt of it in the early '80s which resulted in lots of changes -- removing all angels, demons, devils and "occult imagery", as well as renaming 'gods' to 'powers' -- and even Nintendo of America enforced a policy on religious terms and iconography. So in Legend of Zelda, Link empowers his Magical Wand with a Bible Spell Book. In Castlevania, Simon Belmont defeats Dracula with a cross boomerang to the face. In Final Fantasy, you revive fallen adventures at a Church Clinic. Also, lots of crosses and pentagrams were removed or altered.

I think the reason why Witch Lord was used was due to it being affiliated with an evil undead overlord right out of the packaging.

Kurgan wrote:To me the Holy Water card belongs in the treasure deck like before. That's one solid homebrew rule I'm using whether I'm playing classic or remake. Then again if I was using my Paladin character, the Holy Water vials could be piling up and the ones in the treasure deck might not be needed at all!

Same here. Even though the new HQ game features Holy Water and Potion of Speed as common equipment the heroes can buy, I like to treat them as treasure like in the UK set.

Actually, I prefer the UK treasure deck over the NA deck. With it, I could have a wider assortment of Gold! cards with no repeats (plus that one card that makes a Hero loose a turn) and I can put in six Nothing... cards into the deck to remind the players how finite the Treasure Deck is (once it get tapped of all its gold and potions, leaving only random hazards, wandering monsters and a great big fat nothing burger).

I think the rules are clear enough, the term “attack” is always used to refer to close combat attack unless otherwise stated so the standard Holy Water is clear from a rules point of view to me, the issue is more around the in-game experience.

For your Barbarian, Dwarf and to a certain extent the Elf, once they have acquired enough equipment, being able to kill a “standard” undead creature in an adjacent square using an action isn’t much of a bonus, you can imagine a priest trying to “sell” holy water to a Barbarian, “you just stand next to a skeleton and sprinkle it with Holy Water and it is destroyed instantly”, the Barbarian hefts his large battle-axe in mild amusement “I’ve kind of got that covered already”. Perhaps, you might think then, for the Wizard it is more useful but the guaranteed kill nature means that there is no dice roll, chance and therefore no risk involved, a single undead would present no risk as no die roll and you wouldn’t send your Wizard alone into a room with half-a-dozen Undead whether he had Holy Water or not, so being equipped with Holy Water as it stands either makes no real difference in most scenarios, or in the specific scenario that it could make a difference, there is zero risk.

Changing it to do 3 (or 4) attack dice of damage with no defence and making it a thrown object, means whilst it is limited in effect to Undead, it is more powerful than a crossbow (and easier to carry), but the variability of a dice roll means it could destroy a Mummy with a good roll or mess up your plans by just resulting in damp bandages. Also if it is to be used as a ranged attack then introducing dice makes more sense as you need the possibility of a miss.

You could even, extend its ability to be like that of a Minecraft splash potion (or even the holy hand grenade – thanks Kurgan), by having it cause 3AD of damage to the target and 1AD to monsters in any surrounding squares (or a flat 2AD across all 9 squares).

I’m favouring the area effect / splash idea at the moment both for this and similar items (Alchemist's Fire Flask - the Greek fire flask from AHQ, although as far as I recall there weren't any Greeks in Warhammer...) and some alternative versions of some spells (Ball of Flame or Fire of Wrath), in part because it gives more tactical options for the caster / user but also doesn’t add to the number of single monster high-AD attack options already available – as too many of those result in them being “saved” for the Big Boss, and turning the grand finale of a Quest into something of an anti-climactic choice of which option do we use to kill the Boss in a single turn … Genie spell, Barbarian with Courage (and perhaps Pass through Rock or Veil of Mist to get him into position) and so on.

On a separate note, I too prefer the UK treasure deck, although I have substituted the Treasure horde card for a third Healing Potion as per the US deck (partly to reduce the speed at which the Heroes max out on gold/equipment/advancement) and I like the way that the “Nothing” card, which I return to the deck, transforms from disappointment at the start of a Quest when the deck is rich, to relief towards the end of a tough quest that it isn’t another trap or wandering monster!

See I simply added the unique EU treasure cards to my existing NA treasure deck, padding it out with good stuff (and the "bad" Nothing card). Since the pits are all spikes already in the remake edition I didn't add another spiked pit, so it's a pretty nice deck for the heroes overall.

Without the throwing ability the Holy Water becomes a lot less useful like you say, for the stronger heroes. In the PC game, like I said, it would destroy ALL undead in the entire room or section (1/4th of total for the long ones) of corridor. So you could say in that edition it was certainly a long range attack.

The original card does say "any" which you could take to mean any you can see (meaning any in the same room or corridor with you or in the latter case if unobstructed line of sight).