Line of Sight from within a Pit

[Daedalus]

[This post was split from the Courage Spell topic on 7/13/16.]

...
Incidentally: Pit traps are counted as separate rooms for the purposes of Searching. Would you therefore break Courage if the enchanted Hero fell into a pit? (or more bluntly: what kind of Line of Sight does a Hero in a Pit have?)

In the Daggers topic, I waxed on about line of sight over furniture and short figures. A key concept discussed there regarding the application of A Good Rule of Thumb was a 50/50 visibility limit defined not only by a vertical dividing edge, but also a horizontal one.

The edge of a pit trap serves as such a horizontal dividing-line for line of sight. I'd say the depth of a pit trap is no more than 6 1/2 feet deep, or a bit over 2 meters. Were it any deeper, the Dwarf would be unable to climb out unaided-yet the rules permit this.

Back to the Dwarf, the shortest Hero, his LoS should originate about 3 1/2 feet up, or about 3 feet from the height of the edge of the pit. That allows him to "'see" (center square to adjacent center-square) half of a figure at least 6 feet tall. For simplicity, I'd rough this out to any human-sized monster. A shorter Orc or Goblin already adjacent to the edge wouldn't be seen, so a Courage spell on the Dwarf would end with these monsters. A monster would need to be at least 12 feet tall to be visible two squares away.

A human-sized Hero is 6 feet or nearly so. That puts his LoS about a foot or less from the height of the edge of a pit. He would "see" at least 50% of any monster adjacent to the pit 2 feet tall or more, and he would see any monster 4 feet tall or more one square further away. That would mean a Goblin couldn't be seen beyond a square adjacent to a human-sized Hero in a pit. Human-sized monsters could be seen by a human-sized Hero in a pit up to three squares away, and the Gargoyle and similarly large monsters could be seen four squares away. Of course all cases require no blocking figures or furniture in between.

Tl;Dr: A Dwarf in a pit only has LoS to monsters at least as tall as a human and in an adjacent square. An Elf, Barbarian, or Wizard in a pit has LoS to a Goblin in adjacent square only, an Orc up to two squares away, human-sized monsters up to three squares away, and large monsters up to four squares away.

[Anderas]

Wow. That's complicated.
I like the RPG aspect behind.
I will consider it as soon as my Heroes start their first LOS discussion. For the moment, i'd say you see the 8 squares around the pit.

[Daedalus]

That's a good start...probably all you need. It makes sense a Hero in a pit could at least see a monster that could attack him from adjacent spaces. Diagonal spaces are an easy inclusion from there.

I'd say the next step, if you were so inclined, would be to average out my minutia to any Hero in a pit having LOS to any monster up to two squares from the pit. It shouldn't come up much, as most monsters will advance to an adjacent square for an attack. I don't think monsters would have LOS for missiles or magic beyond an adjacent square, either. Well, maybe an EU Chaos Sorcerer would have LOS if the pit were in a room.

[Anderas]

If you let them see two rows around the pit, and combine that with the small room size, there will be few differences between that and a full line of sight. In the central room or in a hallway sometimes.

Here, for me, it is a thing to be tested. Adds this ruling to the gameplay or is it just a rule that gets accidentally ignored? I guess it really gets important in the boss room only, as this is often the biggest room. Here you would maybe want to restrict it to one row around the pit in order to have a practical use, for example break the courage spell if you use a multi round variant.

Well. I will test it during the next game.

[knightkrawler]

I just updated my own pit trap rules.
A figure in a pit trap may attack with -1 die, but cannot use ranged weapons or discard a throwable weapon.
Line of sight includes adjacent squares, so basically What Anderas Said three posts up.

[The Admiral]

I agree with what has been said above. A Hero down a pit has sight to the 8 adjacent squares and vice versa. As combat is permitted into/out of a pit (Longsword required for a diagonal attack), a Hero in a pit could not be attacked by any ranged weapon fire and vice versa, as any figure outside the pit with a ranged weapon would either be two squares away and thus be unable to see into the pit, or adjacent to the pit and therefore be able to see into it, but be ineligible to make a ranged attack due to adjacency.

Does that logic make sense?

[benvoliothefirst]

Andreas, once again I find you logic to be infallible. Admiral, I would argue that you're not really "adjacent" anymire if they're 6-10 feet below you. The adjacent rule is because trying to cock a crossbow or nock an arrow while someone is swinging a sword at you doesn't make sense, but I find it both characterful and logical for a bunch of opportunist goblins or kobolds to take pot shots at a hero stuck in a hole.

[The Admiral]

Andreas, once again I find you logic to be infallible. Admiral, I would argue that you're not really "adjacent" anymire if they're 6-10 feet below you. The adjacent rule is because trying to cock a crossbow or nock an arrow while someone is swinging a sword at you doesn't make sense, but I find it both characterful and logical for a bunch of opportunist goblins or kobolds to take pot shots at a hero stuck in a hole.

But the problem there, is that if you are far enough away to allow ranged combat, then you can't reach with a hand weapon. Combat is either adjacent and hand to hand, or non-adjacent and ranged. If a Hero is close enough to stab you with a sword, he is close enough to disrupt your ranged attack. I just don't think you can be adjacent and non adjacent in the same place.

[Kurgan]

Finally, there's room for the Long Bow to fire... excellent!

[wallydubbs]

A regular pit, I wouldn't allow ranged combat on an adjacent target, I think the -1AD/DD in the pit is due to having the lower ground (less likely to land a killing blow, plus the attacking monster is working with gravity). But I think the pit could be torso deep, so maybe a hero can fire a ranged weapon at a distant target.

However, things get much more complicated when you play Against the Ogre Horde and dealing with a Pit of Darkness. This pit is much deeper, (30ft if I remember the expansion booklet saying) so adjacent attacking shouldn't be allowed unless you have a ranged weapon.