Ye Olde Inn

After ruminating on the rules for line of sight, including the terms "see" and "visible", it occurs to me for the first time there is a loophole available to Heroes who wish to search a room for traps or secret doors while it still contains one or more monsters. I'll open with the NA Instruction Book, p.15:



I just want to consider the Elf, Wizard, and Orc that isn't visible directly to the right. Now check the relevant search rule for secret doors on p.17, found under How A Hero Searches For Secret Doors:

* As a Hero , you can only search for
secret doors if there are no monsters
visible to you.

Likewise, the rule for searching for traps on p.18 states the same under How A Hero Searches For Traps:

* As a Hero , you can only search for
traps if there are no monsters visible
to you.

As long as the Wizard obstructs the Orc, the Elf can search for either secret doors or traps on his turn. This is because the Orc isn't visible to the Elf, satisfying the search rules. This proves particularly helpful in the case of trap-guarding monsters, as that Evil Sorcerer player strategy can now be countered by a pair of Heroes. One Hero makes the monster not visible to the rear Hero while the rear Hero searches for traps. Hell, disarming a trap mentions nothing about monsters, so a discovered trap could be avoided, jumped, or even disarmed by a team of Heroes while the trap-guarding monster helplessly waited for its turn.

It is also worth noting that a search for treasure is worded and thus handled differently. This search works as you would expect (p.16, How a Hero Searches For Treasure):

* As a Hero, you may search a room
for treasure only if the room is
uninihabited by monsters. [edit in red]

Finally, for the EU players, the relevant rule on p.12 under Searching:

...Characters may not search if they are next to a monster or if there is a monster in the same room or visible in a passage....

Searches are more restricted in rooms, as none are possible while a monster is present. This is similar to searches for treasure in the NA rules. However, since treasure may be searched for in corridors using EU rules, it may be done with monsters present as long as they are obstructed (not visible). Searches for traps and secret doors may also be allowed in corridors with monsters that are obstructed.

I haven't heard of anyone using the rules to their advantage in this way before, but it seems like it is allowed.

Daedalus wrote:This is because the Orc isn't visible to the Elf

What if I just overlook this? I think the Elf is aware of that Orc. Anything else just doesn't make sense.
He sees part of the Orc, he hears it, he even smells it probably (and this isn't meant to be Elf-specific) and if he doesn't, the Wizard will tell him: "Oh pansy-elf. In case you haven't noticed, there's another Orc right behind me."

I just want to say that I've always played that way.
Hero looks down a corridor, ALL monsters along that corridor are put on the board.
I just do not get any other vibe from the rules. Of course you see a Chaos Warrior standing 7 squares behind an Orc when you look down a corridor, and for me,
"seeing" and "line-of-sight" has always been about "noticing" and "line-of-rough-overview" so to speak.

Even if a hero in that aforementioned scenario - looking down a corridor - doesn't see, say, a Goblin standing behind a Chaos Warrior (there you have a valid point), the CW will tell the Goblin "Hey, Orc-poo, look, a hero. Let's kill him!" and thus, the goblin is activated.
That's me as Morcar/Zargon, right there...

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But closer to the thread topic as originally conceived by you, Daedalus, I had about the same thought and presented a little special rule here: http://www.yeoldeinn.com/hqforum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1765&hilit=optional+rules
Search in the Presence of Monsters
A Hero may search even though he can see a monster IF that monster has no way to attack that Hero until the beginning of that Hero's next turn.
(That means, for example the Hero can search, even though the monster can attack the other hero blocking its path, killing him, and then being free to move up to the searching hero... cause the monster's attack for that turn is done).
...For those thinking about the Searching in Presence of monsters (im)possibility. I'm aware of your (Daedalus') thoughts about it.

I was unaware this was a grey area. "Line of Sight" rules are among the most important in the game. There seems to be a trend among some fans of the game where they start throwing out home rules without fully understanding of the rules that already stand, especially those using present singular 1st-person auxiliary verbs.

chaoticprime wrote:especially those using present singular 1st-person auxiliary verbs.

i don't even get what you mean by that.

knightkrawler wrote:

chaoticprime wrote:especially those using present singular 1st-person auxiliary verbs.

i don't even get what you mean by that.

I can't decide to know, either.

From reading the rules literally, this might be possible however in the spirit of the rules, I'm not convinced it is.

Well... RAW this seems legit.
However it is somewhat taken out of context. I think those LOS rules are in place for targeting monsters with arrows/spells.
Obviously you can't shoot an arrow through the wizard, but that doesn't mean you can't see past him.
Seems a little strange if you can search for traps in a long corridor and perhaps find a trap (maybe even further away than the orc?) - yet you still can't see the orc.

I don't think I would allow - Good find though! Would love to have you as a game tester/breaker

Goblin-King wrote:However it is somewhat taken out of context. I think those LOS rules are in place for targeting monsters with arrows/spells.

I too originally thought this however the searching rules do mention monsters and whether they are visible.

I won't allow searching if a monster is visible in the same passage. I dare say some will argue that if a monster is anywhere on the board, it is visible and therefore you can't search. Rules are always open to interpretation.

There's a difference between what the players can see and what the heroes can see

Redav wrote:From reading the rules literally, this might be possible however in the spirit of the rules, I'm not convinced it is.

I don't see the spirit of the rules as much as the split soul of the rules. Hero Quest wants to simply replicate the dungeon-crawling aspect of a fantasy roleplaying game, but it also wants to be a boardgame with light tactical possiblities. Sometimes those aims contradict each other. MB was fine with this because they were able to tap the markets for both styles. It works for us as well because it gives us something to debate about.

I'm pretty sure most people would never even consider this tactical exploitation because there isn't a need. They already get what they are looking for with the dungeon simulation aspect of the game. The intuitive sense that a Hero can't search while a threat is present is enough, so the link isn't made between the search and line of sight rules.

Goblin-King wrote:Well... RAW this seems legit.
However it is somewhat taken out of context. I think those LOS rules are in place for targeting monsters with arrows/spells.
Obviously you can't shoot an arrow through the wizard, but that doesn't mean you can't see past him.
Seems a little strange if you can search for traps in a long corridor and perhaps find a trap (maybe even further away than the orc?) - yet you still can't see the orc.

I don't think I would allow - Good find though! Would love to have you as a game tester/breaker

I agree that there is a logical inconsistency here, but the problem is endemic with how searches are handled using assumed movement. Dungeon realism is again sacrificed when searching in a long corridor for a secret door with an intervening, undiscovered trap. Somehow the further secret door is discovered while the nearer trap is inexplicably avoided. Secret doors are defined on p.17 of the Instruction Book: "Secret doors are hidden portals that cannot be seen when you, as a Hero, 'look' into a room or down a corridor. ...You will not discover a secret door unless you search for one." This tells me that they can't be found by simply looking past the trap, but are assumed to be moved to as part of a search. Yet, because the trap was ignored, the secret door must have been located by some kind of special "peering". I, for one, am going to houserule searching altogether. But I'd like to try playing this loophole for a probationary period to see how it affects gameplay. Maybe it's worth keeping.