TPK, total party kill

[Kurgan]

Q3 was only harder because the Barbarian challenger didn't have enough healing (only the Armband), and the large number of monsters (most of which won't die in one attack) chased him into traps, simple as that. It's one of the tactics they actually recommend that Zargon use in the various quest packs, and it works pretty well. You can't search for traps in a corridor with monsters, and you can't avoid damage from a trap on the other side of a door (especially a stalactite, which is a guaranteed hit). You need luck, extreme caution, or just a stockpile of healing potions...

Under the original rules, the Yeti behind the secret door thing was a dirty trick.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I'm currently working through the Game System / Gathering Storm doing some polishing of quests, applying errata, some tweaks to improve the quest maps, tweaks to improve the notes and similar as part of my HeroQuest Gold Edition project and was considering adding an epilogue to some quests and some additional instruction to the EWP about how to play it if there was a TPK as one size doesn't fit all!

That said I feel there should be a "general rule" for handling TPKs, even if there are exceptions for specific Quests - Legacy of the Orc Warlord, for example, if this results in a TOK, does it rally make sense for an entirely new set of heroes to be captured (why?) and start trapped in a dungeon waiting for a boss to take revenge on them for something that they didn't do, you could rationalise it with the classic case of mistaken identity, but if the original group were skilled escaping then that is the end of that particular story.

I'm thinking at the moment of 2 general rules with individual quests fitting into either.

1) Start with the next quest, this is the cleaner option where possible but if the next quest is easy enough for heroes without equipment, then it would have been too easy for equipped heroes, so maybe this should be an exception rather than a rule.

2) Repeat the original quest, yes that gives the new group an advantage of prescience, but the disadvantage of less kit. Perhaps you could also let them find some, but most certainly not all, of the gold and equipment of their predecessors...and in some of the themed quests you would have to take this option - Quest for the Spirit Blade for example, if our first hero party fails then another will be sent cos we need that damned blade!

[Kurgan]

It doesn't really matter if Artifacts are "needed" later or not, the basic rule as written is that if they are stolen by monsters (which includes them being "lost" because all the heroes die), then Zargon is to re-introduce those Artifacts as special treasures early on in the next quest (how and where he does that is up to him, simplest way is just to say the first treasure search is the artifact or even all of them rather than a card for instance, you could be fancy and put a guarded treasure chest into an otherwise boring room and put all the lost loot inside it). Some Artifacts can be "used up" or even destroyed, but simply having them stolen by heroes dying doesn't wipe them out forever (or force heroes to "return" and "replay" old quests to find them again in the same spot).

What else should Zargon do in the case of a total party kill? Remix the quest (blank map is there for a reason). Have them start a new party of four heroes (with new names) and basic gear and set them on this new quest. Hopefully they'll find whatever Artifact(s) they needed early on so it won't just be a repeated death cycle. Most quests were not intended to be played with less than 4 heroes (which would greatly increase the difficulty) so even one human player can control four heroes at once (we did this a lot as kids anyway without enough people for a full table most of the time).

Notice when we say "remix" Zargon is given a lot of latitude and freedom in regards to that alteration and re-arranging. He could also add or remove monsters/traps/rewards to make it easier (or harder) if he chose, using his best judgment and experience.

The reward (if any) for completing the quest should then go to the new victors, if they succeed. If not, repeat the process again until they get tired or want to start a new part of heroes against a different quest. I thought I heard that the whole remix & repeat thing was only true in the NA edition and not others. If so, that would be kind of interesting... but maybe less satisfying to most player groups unless they really hated the quest (and Zargon couldn't make it more palatable with his changes).

So am I saying if you get a rough TPK in the middle of some campaign and they lost EVERYTHING, should Zargon make some extra equipment or whatever available in the remixed quest, alongside the Artifacts? Sure, or at least enough gold that they can start to buy back what they need to quickly regain their former strength, if appropriate to complete the rest of the campaign.

[The Admiral]

It happens. Get a new party and start again. There are now quite a few quest options for a new party. I actually long for those early days of fresh Heroes starting out and building themselves up. The excitement of buying a shield and longsword long forgotten.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

It doesn't really matter if Artifacts are "needed" later or not, the basic rule as written is that if they are stolen by monsters (which includes them being "lost" because all the heroes die), then Zargon is to re-introduce those Artifacts as special treasures early on in the next quest (how and where he does that is up to him, simplest way is just to say the first treasure search is the artifact or even all of them rather than a card for instance, you could be fancy and put a guarded treasure chest into an otherwise boring room and put all the lost loot inside it). Some Artifacts can be "used up" or even destroyed, but simply having them stolen by heroes dying doesn't wipe them out forever (or force heroes to "return" and "replay" old quests to find them again in the same spot).

Lost Artifacts

It is sometimes required that the Heroes have a specific artifact in their possession before they they continue onto the next quest. Zargon, if a hero dies while in possession of an artifact, and your monsters steal the artifact, you must include the artifact as a special treasure early in the next quest.

Under Second Edition no such rule exists, Quest Treasure cards can be lost in this way, in line with Equipment and Treasure cards, but this doesn't cause an issue as the only Quest Treasure that is needed to fulfil the Objective in future quests is the Spirit Blade due to the Witch Lord's invulnerability to everything else, but you can't complete the "Quest for the Spirit Blade" without emerging from the dungeon with the blade, otherwise you'd have to replay that quest, and if you lose it in Return to Barak Tor before killing the Witch Lord then you'll fail that objective and have to replay that quest too (and moving to Return of the Witch Lord, the Witch Lord has conveniently developed a vulnerability to fire spells - presumably for this exact reason).

Under North American Edition the Quest objectives are unchanged, the Witch Lord's convenient vulnerabilities remain the same, so there appears to be no reason for the extra rule, but still it is present, but within the context of the paragraph, with the first sentence specifically calling out artifacts that need to be in the heroes possession for the next quest, I think it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation that the instruction to include the artifact in the next quest applies to that specific situation and not as a general rule. If it was intended to be a general rule then why the first sentence of that paragraph?

[Kurgan]

Yeah reading the 1990 NA rule again, it doesn't say Zargon has to if it wasn't a 'required' artifact. I have in the past done that way with ALL stolen artifacts (now if you're playing Frozen Horror, those can also go into the Ice Gremlin Treasure Horde rooms).

Most Artifacts are not required (Spirit Blade is probably the only exception) so it would be up to Zargon. I would take it with a difficulty thing. If the Heroes are almost certainly going to lose again (and again) with the loss of power that comes from losing the artifacts on a difficult quest being replayed, I would want them to be found again quickly. You can make up some storyline bit if you want to, like the bad guys stole the gear but hadn't found a good hiding spot for them yet (or perhaps the hiding itself is the trap, maybe there are guardians around it or its in a trapped chest, which is especially evil if they are starting without toolkits... BUT they still have the Dwarf or Rogue, don't they?).

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The existence of this topic implies to me that a TPK (Total Party Kill) is a special event that needs special handling, over and above the normal and relatively straight-forward individual hero death, but I’m not convinced that is actually the case, in fact possibly the opposite is the case that handling individual hero deaths done in a way that is consistent with the spirit of the game may automatically answer the question of how to best handle TPKs (and indeed other “failed the quest objective” scenarios as TPK isn’t the only one)

If you imagine any one of a vast array of 80/90s video games, level based, single player then character death is generally handled in a consistent fashion, the character dies, a message appears on the screen, the game jumps back to the last save point created at the end of the previous level / start of the next level, the character losing anything they have gained during the current level and they start another attempt.

This creates and maintains what I’ll call “character continuity”, so the player might experience the pain and eventually pleasure (or at least relief) of repeated attempts, failure, death, learning, different paths and tactics in their 30 attempts to get through a particular level and the pleasure of finally cracking it, but from the character point of view none of that ever happened, only the final successful event is recorded the others are retconned. You could imagine at the end when you finally complete the final level, that an option to play a video documenting the character’s continual narrative, would show a seamless heroic series of successful level completions.

I think that the original rules of the game, as others have quoted before on this topic, suggest that is the way that the game was originally intended, that in the case of a TPK you repeat the quest. This doesn’t mean that any of the previous inventive solutions suggested above aren’t excellent and for those with the creativity and flair to pull it off then any number of those ideas are great but these proposed house rule enhancements should sit on a simple solid basic approach, but in HQ whilst the general principle is clear, the implementation is often less so.

But does HeroQuest have that element of “character continuity”, at face value with have something of a contradiction, on the one hand many things about HQ suggest a continuity exists, such as in Legacy of the Orc Warlord, the narrative implies that you are the same heroes that completed Lair of the Orc Warlord, the Quest for the Spirit Blade clearly lays the blame for waking the Witch Lord on you, guilt trip? Whilst these examples suggest a continuity within a quest book there are other examples that suggest a continuity between quest books like the epilogue of Return of the Witch Lord refers to “Sir Ragnar who you once rescued from the forces of Chaos…”

However, on the other hand, characters can clearly die, it tells you that in the rulebook.

So, if your character dies then how can there be “character continuity”?

I think the answer here is through the concept of the party and I would suggest to all EWPs out there that when introducing a new group of players to this most excellent of games, at the start when they are choosing their heroes and indeed naming them, that you also promote group identity by encouraging them to select a name for their party of heroes, one of my groups named themselves “The Gold Diggers” which I thought was inspired, and the reason why this is important is whilst the individual members of the group my be killed, indeed all the original individual members may be killed, the group identity continues and this allows for the players to identify both with the individual character and with the group as a whole, so we might not truly have “character continuity” we will certainly have “party continuity” and everyone loves a good party!

[Vorimir]

I added the leveling system from the japanese edition. If you die you may lose your equipment but you will surely lose all your extra body points.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

What do you think of the changes we proposed (see page 17)?
“They’re excellent. This is what we want to encourage. The game system was kept flexible enough so that it could incorporate all sorts of amendments.”

One thing that bugs me a little about HQ is the way that from its initial conception the suitability of the game to be house ruled has been promoted as part of the fun, which is great, but sometimes that encouragement to house rule is used as an excuse to leave gaping holes and inconsistencies in the rules, and just expecting players to house rule their way through.

If you consider a parallel with Lego for example, you can purchase a set for the fun of building the set as the creator intended or ignore that entirely and use the parts to combine with other sets and create your own (or both). This “multiple ways of playing” approach is certainly part of the appeal, for both Lego and HeroQuest, but still a Lego set always comes with detailed instructions on exactly how to put the set together as the creator intended, it is up to you whether you choose to follow them or improvise.

So whilst the idea that failing a quest results in a rollback, reset and subsequent attempt is fine as a principle but imagine when playing The Rescue of Sir Ragnar, if Sir Ragnar is killed during the rescue attempt…

Completing a Quest
The character players complete a Quest successfully if they achieve the objectives described in the parchment text which the evil wizard player reads aloud at the beginning of the game. If they fail to do so, or if they are all players (and/or new ones) can always attempt the same Quest again, but the evil wizard player always starts a Quest with a full complement of monsters.

Completing a Quest
The player characters complete a Quest successfully if they achieve the objectives described in the passage written on parchment which the evil wizard player reads aloud at the beginning of the game. If they fail to do so, or if they are killed, the evil wizard wins. Of course, surviving player characters (and/or new ones) can always attempt the same Quest again, but the evil wizard players always starts a Quest with a full complement of monsters.

Completing a Quest
The player characters complete a Quest successfully if they achieve the objectives described in the passage in bold type which the evil wizard player reads aloud at the beginning of the game. If they fail to do so, or if they are all killed, the evil wizard player wins. Of course, surviving player characters (and/or new ones) can always attempt the same Quest again, but the evil wizard player always starts a Quest with a full complement of monsters.

So do the heroes continue to find their way out of the dungeon knowing that the objective has been failed and they’re only going to be retconned and have to make another attempt, or do you end the game at the moment of Sir Ragnar’s death as a victory for the EWP and then replay it again as if the first attempt was never made?

What happens to Treasure Cards, Gold from Chests and other items, even Quest Treasures, found during the failed quest by surviving heroes?

What happens to any heroes that died during the Quest that never happened, why would you replace them with new heroes, if their deaths never happened?
If however you rule that the failed Quest did “officially” happen, then what is the objective of the surviving player characters (and/or new ones) in this second attempt, to rescue the already dead Sir Ragnar?

The rules are not clear

The idea that failing a quest, results in a reset and a second attempt, which if successful will go down in history works and works well for single player games but for multi-player games things get more complicated.

You could consider the Quest to be failed if any hero dies and reset back to the start. This would work but wouldn’t feel satisfactory to me, there would be no point in the other heroes carrying on and snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, knowing that it makes no difference as they are going to lose everything they have gained and will have to replay the quest from scratch again anyway. Equally ending the quest as soon as one hero dies, also strikes me as being unsatisfactory and indeed the rules of HQ do cover how to handle the situation of an individual hero death but it isn’t clear how those would still apply in a failed quest.

Individual Hero Death

When a hero dies from the character perspective Durgin the Dwarf is dead, but from the player perspective although Durgin the Dwarf is dead, at the start of the next Quest he is replaced by an identical Dwarf, long live Durgin the Dwarf II, so no real impact, except potentially around his equipment.

The details of how equipment can be lost through hero death, varies between versions but it is an all or nothing situation. Either the monsters get to your gear, in which case it is all lost, or your fellow heroes get to it first and it is all retained.

In many similar games, character death is associated with a loss of experience, whether it is golden rings, glowing experience orbs, lumps of cheese or some similar mechanism, some are lost, and usually it is any excess experience points that you are holding, as opposed to any that have already been spent in upgrading your character. A level 5 character that dies comes back as a level 5 character but any excess accumulated experience towards level 6 would be lost.

This makes sense to me as you want a penalty, death should be something that you want to avoid, but not so stiff a penalty that you are basically back at the start. As, in general, the amount of experience needed to advance a level increases as your character develops, this also rather neatly means that the loss is generally proportionate to your advancement, by which I mean a level 1 character might only need 100 points to advance to level 2, but a level 9 character might need 1000 points to advance to level 10, so the average loss for a level 1 character would be around 50 points but for a level 9 character around 500 points.

Returning to HeroQuest, some consider the game doesn't have an advancement system, but it does, it is just understated, essentially you kill monsters, gain gold and spend it on equipment that upgrades your profile.

So hero death in HeroQuest should translate into a loss of gold for our transitioning hero, or at least their player. Durgin the Dwarf II should have a proportional reduction in his gold level compared to his predecessor, but not by an excessive amount.

How to work this in play, keeping it simple as always...

Handling Hero Death

When a hero dies, take his stack of cards and put them to one side, along with his figure.

If the Quest is successfully completed, then the player will need to choose a new hero for the next Quest. He must first return all the original hero's Treasure Cards to be included in the Treasure deck for the next Quest and he loses any gold accumulated from previous quests that has not been spent, but the new Hero will inherit all the dead hero’s Equipment and Quest Treasure cards.

If the Quest is not successfully completed, then see the next section.

Exception: If a Quest Treasure is required to complete the current Quest, such as the Spirit Blade, then that Quest Treasure Card only may be taken by another hero.

Handling Failed Quests

If the heroes fail to achieve a quest objective, including if all the heroes die, then the game resets back to the start of that quest. Any Gold, Treasure Cards, Quest Treasures gained in the failed quest are lost, and the Quest must be started again with the original heroes and their associated items, as if the failed quest had never happened.

Some may comment on this being "unrealistic" but for me a better gameplay experience trumps realism in a game very time!

Possible extra rule: Heroes can only use the staircase to exit the dungeon once the Quest objectives have been achieved

[Kurgan]

Most quests don't have such a hard line to follow with consequences of failure of a particular mission. Heroes who die are replaced by other heroes who return to succeed where the others failed in a remixed quest, and lost loot (if it contains artifacts, though at this early stage it would not yet) become part of the next hoard to be found. Prisoners are simply recaptured. But here if Sir Ragnar dies, he dies. The heroes have completed the quest but do not get the reward since the prisoner was killed in the attempt. Thus the next quests follow the path of vengeance (not too different than they did before).

In the original run of the NA edition this was no problem (story-wise) because Sir Ragnar didn't re-appear (alive necessarily) in the storyline. Now that he does (several expansions later), Zargon can make up whatever excuse he wants. Maybe the King's healers were able to revive him after a long and difficult recovery (the conditions of the reward being his safety). Or maybe the traitor was some other knight formerly trusted who went traitor (Sir Manfred "the Spider"? See also Hinsgrim in the Dark Company). He either dies a hero or lives long enough to see himself become the villain.

Maybe the heroes return with only Sir Ragnar's corpse. They use an Elixir of Life (off camera) to bring him back. No reward is given (you think those Elixirs are free or easy to come by?). They don't repeat the quest to get the reward again after completion.

But in this case, due to the somewhat unique features of that story decision... Zargon letting the heroes do a complete do over (so everything resets... hero deaths and gained gold as well goes back to what it was before) is also fine. It's starting a new game rather than picking up where the first left off. What if the heroes are tired of this and don't want to continue the quests in order? Are they stuck forever because Sir Ragnar got killed? They could go back to the beginning as well. This to me is just more flexibility with the game. You hit the reset button on the nintendo and choose "new game."