Is Witch Lord considered undead versus the spirit blade?

[wallydubbs]

Cool to hear is opinion! And are the quotation marks meant to go around that last section as well? If so, humble guy...

No, the final paragraph was me. I'm just saying I know we all tend to play it a little different, and if I want to make it a tad bit more difficult on the heroes, I personally won't count the Witch Lord as undead.

And yeah, he's a really pleasant guy.

[Parzival]

I’m not surprised at Baker’s response. To me, it was the only thing which made sense. That the Spirit Blade’s card doesn’t specifically mention the Witch Lord as a target makes sense— he’s a unique individual, not a standard monster, and the need for the blade isn’t necessarily obvious to the players, even if Zargon knows it. Since the Spirit Blade first appears in the original game quest book (and the Witch Lord does not), why would the card text mention the Witch Lord? Doing so gives away a very important secret, which the heroes/players won’t find out until they actually face the fiend in the RotWL quest!
Any good Zargon/Game Master knows you never show your full hand to the players until it’s time to spring the trap…

As a general rule, wording in a game should never be read as exclusive unless it explicitly states it is. It should instead be interpreted as inclusive. Thus, the Spirit Blade description may list the basic undead creatures in the game, but that does not exclude it from affecting other undead creatures later introduced in the game. They’re game rules, not laws. The point is to allow for fun, not promote debate.

“They’re more like… guidelines...”— Captain Barbossa.

Also, theme should be considered. It may not be a rule, but thematic elements in the game can guide an assessment of what is intended by a rule.Thus, the Spirit Blade affects the Witch Lord, who is obviously thematically undead even if not explicitly stated to be. He is a “lich” without the term “lich” having to be explained to kids (and adults) unfamiliar with the word (which, in the context of being an undead sorcerer, originates entirely in D&D. Otherwise it just means a corpse.). In the context of the game and theme, the Witch Lord is an undead sorcerer of “dread” power— and it makes sense that the Spirit Blade gets the extra die against him as effectively the only Artifact in the world which can kill him!

[Kurgan]

Baker's interpretation raises an uncomfortable follow-up question... what about Holy Water? Granted, HW was extremely rare in the NA edition (only one instance, via a quest note in a single quest), but it's available in every quest in the EU edition, in theory, and in the Remake it not only exists but could be stockpiled (though it's absurdly expensive, at least using RAW). Now I also grant, the card says undead, but then lists the three types of undead monsters, as if it wouldn't work on any other sorts (but later expansions clarify Holy Water destroys evil zero mind point monsters... meaning Skullblights and Specters are just as destroyed by it as skeletons, zombies, and mummies).

I guess you could say that HW shouldn't destroy the Witch Lord (or any of his lieutenants), because even if we classify him as undead (for purposes of the spirit blade), he doesn't have 0 mind points...

[manaknight14]

Holy water is a non-issue for the Witch Lord because the Spirit Blade is explicitly stated to be the only thing that can hurt him. Even in his expansion, he is given a list of specific things that can hurt him and holy water is not on it.

Where holy water becomes a question is for other "special" undead enemies. Think about the mummy that guards Fellmarg's tomb. Is one extra AD enough to justify it being immune to holy water? I would think no, that would be a fine place to use it. I was generally in line with Kurgan's interpretation that holy water works when a monster has 0 mind points, because that mostly just keeps you from using it to one shot a potential undead boss monster like the Spirit Riders (or Skulmar and Kessandria, if you interpret them to be undead). But then I considered a monster like Kelvinos from Frozen Horror. That dude has some pretty tough stats including 4 BP, but no mind points. Should you be able to use holy water on him? Would that be a cheap victory or a clever alternative way to defeat a tough enemy?

One possible limitation could be this: all "standard" undead that we have seen so far not only have no mind points, but also have 2 BP or less. Maybe holy water can't destroy monsters with more BP than that. Should it still hurt them, though? Maybe if I throw holy water on an undead monster it just does 2 BP of damage whether that's enough to destroy it or not. And if I extend that thought, maybe rather than saying undead with mind points are outright immune to holy water, they get to defend against the 2 BP of damage with one die for each mind point (so it might still hurt them but the effects are limited). Again, none of this is in the RAW, but I'm just running through how a Zargon player can extrapolate the rules for holy water into situations the RAW don't really consider.

[wallydubbs]

I'd just house rule that Holy Water doesn't kill the Witch Lord, but makes him vulnerable for 1 turn. Dump a vial of Holy Water onto the Witch Lord and any weapon could harm him.

[Parzival]

Those ideas for Holy Water are good ones— I like the idea that it does 2BP to any undead.
As it is, Holy Water is just too expensive to use on anything other than a mummy, and even then it’s a bit precious. I don’t think it’s ever been purchased in my games (not that I’ve played a lot…). I did have a couple of found bottles, which got used on mummies.

The house rule of it making the Witch Lord (or similar) vulnerable to any weapon for one Heroes’ Turn is nifty. But that may be too big of an advantage…

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Since the Spirit Blade first appears in the original game quest book (and the Witch Lord does not)

In which version of the game does the Witch Lord not appear in the original game quest book?

Holy water is a non-issue for the Witch Lord because the Spirit Blade is explicitly stated to be the only thing that can hurt him. Even in his expansion, he is given a list of specific things that can hurt him and holy water is not on it.

Spot on!

I have a house rule that treats Holy Water as a "flask" so it is thrown at a target square and all undead on the target square and the eight squares surrounding it (splash potion!) suffer 2CD of damage.

[Parzival]

Since the Spirit Blade first appears in the original game quest book (and the Witch Lord does not)

In which version of the game does the Witch Lord not appear in the original game quest book?

Apparently the mythical one in my head.

Mea culpa— I could have sworn the Spirit Blade appeared before the players would know they needed it. I think what happened is that I forgot the Witch Lord appears in the basic HeroQuest game, and thought he didn’t show up until RotWL— “Return” in the title not withstanding. Oops.

Or, as Gilda Radner would say, “Never mind.”

[Onan]

Mea culpa— I could have sworn the Spirit Blade appeared before the players would know they needed it. I think what happened is that I forgot the Witch Lord appears in the basic HeroQuest game, and thought he didn’t show up until RotWL— “Return” in the title not withstanding. Oops.

I know this feeling. As a kid I thought that the Witch Lord is Morcar. I have even written a complete campaign "Morcar's Revenge" in which Morcar resurrects after being killed in RotWL.

[wallydubbs]

I believe you are experiencing the Mandala Effect.