Is Witch Lord considered undead versus the spirit blade?

[mitchiemasha]

I like those sort of quirky things introduced into quests occasionally. A while back a group of our Heroes teamed up with a Chaos Warrior to fight a common enemy. He stayed with them afterwards with an ever increasing random chance, unknown to the Heroes, that he would turn on them, as he did eventually.

This is very similar to the werewolf, berserker, half ork, blood lust kind of trait. A very difficult character to play. Whenever 1 of your movement d6 is higher than your mind value you auto attack everything in reach, the other movement d6. Other heroes might want to keep a bit of distance from this guy. Not alwasy possible. Most the time a few spaces is enough as double high rolls are rare. It's a good idea to design this character with high mind, which fits the lore of being able to control the senses, urges in the first place.

A half ork controlling the orkish urge to kill all humans because of a greater hatred for orks themselves. A werewolf, resisting the smell of human flesh, when too excited (a high roll), if you're too close, you're going to get bit.

The forces of chaos are going to want to attack the mind of this character and have him succumb to it's primal instincts, reverting back to the twisted reality in which they belong. The Heroes must prevent this at all costs... whats a few scratches between friends, especially those who have journeyed to hell and back.

[Kurgan]

Another way you could do it (but might be more difficult to pull off without pissing people off) would be to have one of the Heroes secretly working with Zargon behind the scenes (you meet with your friend and agree that at certain points he'll work against his fellows), a kind of mole or sleeper agent. After awhile though he would be exposed and ganged up on, and after that the difficulty would be getting the players to trust you again. So maybe not... go with the "random chance of guy getting corrupted" gimmick instead.

We probably won't have a Commanded hero dumping Holy Water on his own head, but it's still a funny image for me.

Should the Spirit Blade do extra damage to the Witch Lord? I don't think so. I think it's enough that its one of the few things that can do any damage at all to him, and that is its purpose... to shred his lesser minions and give you a fighting chance to beat him (but yeah, 1 Body Point is too easy, go with the NA version).

[The Admiral]

I’m laughing that this thread is still going and showing no sign of reaching a consensus. I’m beginning to see why a game of Heroquest can last Hours and hours for some players

Please carry on, very entertaining.

I hope the consensus is each to their own. And if a group can't agree then the EW should have the final say. Which in my case would be me! My game, my rules!

[wallydubbs]

I can concur with that. But personally, I feel the arguments for and against the Witch Lord's undead status are valid either way you go. Yes, it depends on the Zargon/Morcar player's perception. I've made my stance opinion on this clear and a friendly difference of opinion is welcome.

He may actually be a Lich, for all I know, but not everybody playing HeroQuest is familiar with Warhammer, so unless it's stated otherwise in HQ cannon, a lich's existence is purely speculatory.

The argument may indeed be the Schrodinger's Cat of HeroQuest (except instead of a cat it's the Witch Lord and instead of a box it's sepulcher); can we consider him both alive and undead? By extension, behind the Witch Lord, we can then argue the same question over Skulmar and the Witch Queen. It certainly feels like there's some sort of Unholy Trinity regarding the three as the Introduction to Return of the Witch Lord states: "If these two sit along side the Witch Lord, it is said that the bones of the fallen warriors will be summoned together under the Black Banner." Are we talking an apocalyptic event with Biblical prepositions?
Quest 13 and 14 from the Game System establishes that the Witch Lord's army will attack the Emperor's army from the rear. So the Witch Lord would already have an undead army and an impressive array of spells; but presumably, Kassandra and Skulmar add something to his power; by the aforementioned passage I can imagine nothing less then the Night King. The Witch Lord is obviously the main component in this Triad, but we can assume they are somewhat like the Witch Lord with an exception that any blade (not just the Spirit Blade) can harm them. Again, Holy Water doesn't seem to register any effect on them either. But I'm assuming everyone who counts the Witch Lord as undead would factor these two as well...?

[Maurice76]

I would rule them as such, yes.

By the way, for the longest time I assumed that Skulmar was actually a Chaos Warrior. That's mostly because of the army symmetry in the room he's in and the 3 symmetrical spots to his spot all feature a Chaos Warrior. In reality, there's preciously little about what he looks like, as far as I know, but many people assume a skeletal figure instead.

[The Admiral]

I can concur with that. But personally, I feel the arguments for and against the Witch Lord's undead status are valid either way you go. Yes, it depends on the Zargon/Morcar player's perception. I've made my stance opinion on this clear and a friendly difference of opinion is welcome.

He may actually be a Lich, for all I know, but not everybody playing HeroQuest is familiar with Warhammer, so unless it's stated otherwise in HQ cannon, a lich's existence is purely speculatory.

Just read up about Warhammer Liches. It does seem to fit the WL quite well, but as you say, there is nothing in the HQ world to say he is.

[Daedalus]

I would rule them as such, yes.

By the way, for the longest time I assumed that Skulmar was actually a Chaos Warrior. That's mostly because of the army symmetry in the room he's in and the 3 symmetrical spots to his spot all feature a Chaos Warrior. In reality, there's preciously little about what he looks like, as far as I know, but many people assume a skeletal figure instead.

Check out this post for Skulmar's possible appearance.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

No. Spirit Blade's description excludes the Witch Lord.

I don't agree, the Spirit Blade's description does NOT exclude the Witch Lord, it just doesn't include him. The reason why this distinction is important is that I'm sure there were plans to create future expansions when the original game was released, assuming it was successful, if you don't treat the list on the card as examples of what are included and instead treat it as a complete, exclusive list of everything that is included, then you are would need to also include all the other new type of undead that could possibly be created in any and all future quests (and create your own quests) which is clearly impossible.

I totally understand and respect everyone's opinion on this, but I'm gonna have to be the odd man out:
Categorically speaking, how do you distinguish undead? Granted he's skeletal in appearance and was awakened in a tomb. But it doesn't seem like he was dead the whole time and came back to life, there was a Magical seal that kept the Witch Lord confined to this room.

I do not consider him undead because
A. It is not specified (Even Kalvenos from Frozen Horror is granted the distinction);
B. He has mind points (which all other undead do not have); and
C. He can cast spells (which no other undead can do, asides from homemade quests);
D. Holy Water (or Sacred Water) isn't counted among the list of weapons and spells that could harm him in RotWL.
Yes, the Spirit Blade IS the only thing that can harm him, but it can harm anything, just gives you a bonus against undead. Plus I'd like to keep it more challenging for the heroes.
This in turn will simplify the same questions regarding sentience of Skullmar and Kassandra.

A: Correct, it isn't specified that he is undead, equally it isn't specified that he isn't undead, so I don't think that counts as evidence for or against either interpretation

B & C: Casting spells and having mind points are interlinked so this is probably the same point twice rather than two distinct points, but this feel like circular logic that justifies the conclusion. You could equally say that the Orc Shaman is the only Orc that can cast spells, other Orcs cannot, therefore the Orc Shaman is not an Orc.

The fact that he has mind points may just indicate that he is a type of undead that is controlled by his own mind (mindful?) rather than the mind of another (mindless?)

D: At least in the original version, in the Gathering Storm campaign he can be harmed only by the Spirit Blade, and in Return of the Witch Lord campaign he can only be harmed by the Spirit Blade and Fire magic.

Holy Water affects Undead but doesn't affect Not Undead, it doesn't affect the Witch Lord so the Witch Lord isn't Undead
The Crossbow affects all characters Undead and Not Undead, it doesn't affect the Witch Lord so the Witch Lord isn't Undead or Not Undead.

The reason why Holy Water and the Crossbow do not harm the Witch Lord is because neither of them are the Spirit Blade or Fire magic.

I would assume yes, the witch Lord is undead (locked in a tomb) so the heroes can roll 4 combat dice against him when using the spirit blade broadsword.

Agreed, on balance of probabilities I treat the Witch Lord as Undead (so the Spirit Blade gets the 4 attack dice) because the Spirit Blade is the only weapon that can harm him and the Spirit Blade was forged specifically to combat Undead (seems a bit of a coincidence otherwise that the only weapon that can harm him just happens to be one designed to combat undead).

[wallydubbs]

As partial as I was about my own opinions on the matter, I'm willing to admit that I was wrong. Not because newer undead, such as the Specters, are allowed to cast spells, but mainly because I heard it from Stephen Baker himself.

In a recent E mail to Baker, I asked him:
One of the most iconic features of the original Game System is the Witch Lord's immunity to spells and weapons. Only the Spirit Blade can harm him. The Spirit Blade also grants an extra attack dice against the Undead, but many at the Inn are unsure if the Witch Lord counts as Undead. Only the Spirit Blade can harm him, yes, but is the Witch Lord Undead?

Baker responded:
"A good question, and one that should have been better specified. The Witch Lord is undead and the extra die should be applied.

I trust this was Baker's original intent. However, Baker has also said to me "I want to avoid being the arbiter of rules, as this is an active product for Hasbro."
A lot of people play this game with subtle differences. In fact, it's doubtful anybody actually plays this the same way from Table to table. I occasionally find myself amending house rules. So, for me, if the heroes are whizzing through a quest making hight rolls and are due to face the Witch Lord in the next room and I don't want them finishing the quest too easily or too quickly, I might hold off on the added attack dice.

[Kurgan]

Cool to hear is opinion! And are the quotation marks meant to go around that last section as well? If so, humble guy...