EU 1st, 2nd editions vs. NA (and remake) Rules revisited...

[Onan]

Kurgan, if you could just make a photo of all cards, I would extract the text and make digital versions of the cards like I did for 2nd edition:
https://heroscribe.github.io/heroscribe/cards.html?r=EU

It would be enough to just spread the cards and make one photo of them all, provided the resolution is good enough to read the text.

[Onan]

BHW, you have some question marks regarding placing items in the 1st Edition, and you don't cover it in ths US Edition:

Seeing/Line of Sight/Missile Fire/Casting:
1st Edition:
The drawing of imaginary lines from the center of one figure or square to another to establish "line of sight" or visibility is only required when targeting characters through doorways or in corridors. Otherwise a figure in the same room with you is always considered to be visible. For purposes of placing items, a hero can "see" the entire corridor or room they're in. ?? Opening a door does not reveal the room until you actually step inside (but you can practically see everything anyway just standing in the doorway). ??

2nd Edition:
Same as above.

NA Edition:
The aiming mechanic for corridors is now also used in rooms. You must have an unobstructed line of sight to be able to cast a spell or target another figure with missile fire. If you can see a monster in the room with you, this should prevent searches of any kind, but it's debated if this means you could form a screen around yourself to obstruct line of sight to a monster and therefore search (when it comes to treasure, a monster in the room prevents the search, period). Furniture is technically never stated to block line of sight, except when it comes to closed doors, while stone blocks are considered walls, so they definitely block line of sight. In modern times Avalon Hill has clarified they interpret it to mean that (in the words of Doug Hopkins) "Treasure cares about monsters in the room, while traps and secret doors care about visibility."

Here is a collrction of the relevant paragraphs from the 3 editions together with my interpretation


EU 1st Edition
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The paragraphs concerning placement in the 1st Edition are the following:

Moving Around the Board

As the characters explore Morcar’s dungeons, they enter new rooms and passages. If you are the first player to enter a new room or passageway, you should give the evil wizard player enough time to consult the Quest book and place onto the board any visible monsters and furniture.

Opening Doors

Characters and monsters can only enter and leave rooms through open doors. Monsters cannot open doors.

You can open a door by moving onto the square in front of it. You do not have to open a door if you do not want to. Opening a door does not count as a move. Having opened a door, you can keep moving, if you have any spaces left to move.

As soon as a door is opened, the evil wizard player must place any pieces shown for that room or passage on the map in the Quest book (apart from traps and secret doors). Once opened, a door remains open for the rest of the game. The evil wizard player should remove the closed door piece and replace it with an open door.

Note that, because you may not move through the same square twice in one move, if you move through a door, you may not pass through it again until your next turn.

Blocked Square Tiles

These tiles should be placed according to the map in the Quest book as soon as they become visible to a player character. The tiles show where extra walls have been built, or where the ceiling has fallen in. Neither characters nor monsters may move through blocked squares.

Casting Spells

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell- caster. Models in the same room as the spell-caster are always visible. Models in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line from the spell-caster to the target. If the line passes through another model, through a wall, or through a closed door, then the target model is not visible.

When a Hero opens a door into a new room or passage, the complete room or passage is revealed ("any pieces shown for that room or passage on the map in the Quest book"). When a hero enters a new room or passage, only the visible monsters and furniture are placed. It is not defined what visible means in this case. There is a definition of visible in "Casting Spells", but it is not stated that this visibility rule also applies to placement.

If you use the "Casting Spells" visibility rule for placement, then you would have to reveal a complete corridor when the Hero opens a door into the corridor, and only pieces with an unobstructed line (also unobstructed from miniatures) when the Hero enters the corridor from a junction. This doesn't feel like it is intented.

My interpretation of visible in the context of placement is "not hidden", like traps and secret doors, and not blocked off by blocked squares.

The rules don't cover the situation when a Hero approaches a junction and "peeks around the corner". You could argue that Morcar should reveal the new corridor when the Hero moves onto the square next to a junction, because from a geometrical perspective it would be the same as standing behind an open door. However, since it is not covered by the rules, strictly speaking the Hero would have to move onto the junction to trigger the reveal of the new corridor.


EU 2nd Edition
--------------

The paragraphs concerning placement in the 2nd Edition are the following:

Moving around the board

As the character players move around the gameboard they enter new rooms and passages. If you are the first player to enter a new room or passageway, you should give the evil wizard player enough time to consult the Quest Book map and place onto the board any visible monsters and furniture.

Opening doors

Characters and monsters can only enter and leave rooms through open doors. Monsters cannot open doors. Character players may open a door by moving onto the square in front of it. Character players do not have to open a door if they do not wish to. Opening a door does not count as a move. Having opened a door, a character player may keep moving, if he has any spaces left to move. As soon as a door is opened, the evil wizard player must place onto the board any pieces shown for that room, or passageway, on the map in the Quest Book. Once opened, a door remains opened for the remainder of the game. The evil wizard player should remove the closed door piece and replace it with an open door piece.

What can be seen?

Deciding what can be seen by a player character is very important in determining what should be placed onto the board. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible.

2nd Edition uses the the same placement rules as 1st Edition when opening doors into a new room or passage: "As soon as a door is opened, place onto the board any pieces shown for that room, or passageway, on the map in the Quest Book". Again, no visibilty retraints for placement when opening a door.

However, the next paragraph talks about visibilty. It defines "visible" in a way similar to the "Casting a Spell" chapter, except that miniatures don't block visibility. This paragraph is an addition to the 1st Edition rules. Maybe someone hinted at the fact that the word visible was used without defining what it means, so they felt the need to clarify it. But instead of clarification they created a contradiction between the "What can be seen?" rule and the "Opening doors" rules.

Morcar has to resolve the contradiction by prioritizing either of the 2 rules:
Option 1) "opening doors" rules has higher priority: This means that when a Hero opens a door into a corridor, everything is revealed, but when he enters a corridor from a junction, only pieces with an unobstructed line are revealed. Since miniature do not block the line, it doesn't make any difference from a practical point of view. You could construct a conflicting situation by placing a monster behind a single blocked square inside a 2 square wide corridor, but this is rather theoretical.
Option 2) "what can be seen?" rule has higher priority: This means that when a hero opens a door, he would only have a 90 degree wide field of view into the new room or corridor. The sides would be blocked off by the wall edges around the open door. He would have to step into the room to see everything inside. This means that on Morcar's turn Morcar would not be allowed to move the miniatures inside the blind spot, since they are not yet on the board.

If I had to choose, I would go for option 1, because it is the simpler approach. Option 2 doesn't feel like 10 year old kids would have fun handling the 2 stage reveal plus the discussions about monsters in the blind spot. But in fact I don't choose. I am convinced that whoever added the "What can be seen?" chapter simply messed it up, because he didn't double check the chapter about "opening doors". So I just ignore it.

US Edition
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The paragraphs concerning placement in the US Edition are the following:

Looking And Opening Doors

As a Hero, while moving, you may "look" down a corridor or through an open door. Looking gives you the opportunity to see what is directly within your line of sight, such as closed doors, blocked square spaces, and monsters. Looking is NOT one of the 6 actions. On your turn, you may move adjacent to a closed door and ask Zargon to open it. Zargon will open the door by removing the closed door piece and replacing it with an open door piece. Opening a door is also NOT one of the 6 actions. Both "looking" and "opening doors" are simply considered to be additional things you may do on your turn.

How Zargon Reacts To Hero Movement

As Zargon, you must carefully watch a Hero's movement. Continually refer to the Quest Map in the Quest Book. When a Hero "looks" down a corridor, place on the gameboard any closed doors, blocked square tiles, and monsters that are directly within the Hero's line of sight. (See page 15 "SEE" for clear line of sight.) When a Hero opens a door, place on the gameboard the monsters, treasure chests, and any other items that belong in that room. Note: Do not put out any traps or secret doors. Do not reveal treasure at this time.

"SEE"

For the Elf or Wizard to cast a spell, the target must be visible. Heroes and monsters are only visible if an unobstructed straight line can be traced from the spellcaster to the target.

A Good Rule of Thumb: Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on and the center of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, Hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge. The following diagram shows an example of what is visible.

Zargon needs to reveal a new area in the following situations:
1) A Hero opens a door into a new room
2) A Hero opens a door into a new corridor
3) A Hero "looks" down a new corridor

About situation 1), the US rules say:
"When a Hero opens a door, place on the gameboard the monsters, treasure chests, and any other items that belong in that room."

This means that opening a door triggers the reveal of the complete room, independent of the LOS rules covered by the "SEE" section. The reveal is triggered by the opening of the door, not by the hero "looking" through the open door.

Situation 2) is not directly mentioned by the rules. Probably the hero needs to "look" down the new corridor or through the open door. The rules do not cover the situation when a hero "looks" through an open door, so although the hero has the option of "looking" through the open door into the new corridor, Zargon has no means to react to this event, because it is not covered by the rules. He would have to say "I'm sorry, but I don't know what happens when you "look" through an open door, would you mind "looking" down the new corridor?"

Situation 3) It is not covered from where the hero can "look" down a corridor. Does he have to be in the new corridor? Or can he "look" down the corridor from behind an open door, or from the square just behind the junction into the new corridor? Whatever option Zargon decides to use, he will have to reveal the corridor according to the following rule as soon as the hero "looks" down the corridor:

When a Hero "looks" down a corridor, place on the gameboard any closed doors, blocked square tiles, and monsters that are directly within the Hero's line of sight. (See page 15 "SEE" for clear line of sight.)

Zargon will have to place everything in the Hero's line of sight. Line of sight is supposed to be defined in the chapter "SEE", which says the following:

"SEE"

For the Elf or Wizard to cast a spell, the target must be visible. Heroes and monsters are only visible if an unobstructed straight line can be traced from the spellcaster to the target.

A Good Rule of Thumb: Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on and the center of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, Hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge. The following diagram shows an example of what is visible.

Line of sight is not mentioned in the chapter "SEE". In fact, it is not mentioned anywhere in the document except in the 2 chapters about "looking". Let's assume "visible" in chapter "SEE" means line of sight. Then Zargon would reveal everything with an unobstructed straight line to the hero. Unobstructed by what? The rule does not state it, only the "Rule of Thumb": "If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, Hero or monster..." So if there are 2 Orcs in a row in the new corridor, Zargon would only reveal the first. According to the rules, the second Orc would never be revealed, except when the hero once more "looks" down the same corridor.

Of course common sense would tell Zargon to reveal the second Orc when the first is gone. But what if the hero doesn't kill the first Orc? Would Zargon be allowed to move the 2nd Orc on his turn? Probably not, because the rules say:

Zargon, only after ALL 4 Heroes have completed a turn is it your turn. You may then move every monster currently on the gameboard.

The 2nd Orc is not on the gameboard, so Zargon does not move it.

I think the US placement rules are far too complicated, both in terms of how they describe it and how they probably want it to be handled. I'm glad I don't have to use them.

[Kurgan]

I haven't had time, Onan, for anything super fancy, but I did post my photos of the 1st edition cards I have in the HeroQuestFans Discord before I left.

[Onan]

Sounds good, Kurgan, but I don't find it in the discord...

[Kurgan]

It's here.

Some people prefer this forum. Others prefer discord. Others prefer facebook, or instagram, or reddit, or X. That's why we cross post as we can!

I may have shown the same card more than once (the flipped cards are not meant to be counted as another card). The point is that there are NO duplicates in the 1st edition decks other than in Equipment deck there are 2 Helmets and 2 Shields, while in the Treasure Deck there are two identical healing potions, 2 (differently worded) Arrow traps, and 4 identically worded wandering monster cards.

The gameplay differences between NA and EU editions are huge, but there are plenty of differences between 1st and 2nd as we've seen, and the Ye Olde Inn main site focuses mainly on the EU 2nd edition vs. NA.

Other interesting little differences from my NA edition: 4 white combat dice (instead of 6), Sorcerer's table doesn't have a cardboard component, there's a plastic "candy tray" (more like a box liner) in the bottom. The pages of the quest book and instruction booklet have a shiny surface. The quest booklet has dark brown ink on the inside rather than pure black and white (like the Adventure Design Kit or Japanese edition) or limited color coding (like the NA edition). The cards are a textured kind of matte finish on the back (the deck image) and shiny white with dark brown ink on the front (the card mechanics side). They are European size, so smaller than the NA cards. The plastics are all a different shade of the color (though the brown and grey are very close). Green monsters are more olive than the more dark pine green of the NA, and the undeads are closer to white than the more yellowish NA (even accounting for chemical yellowing of the plastic), etc. The entire existence of the Equipment deck (NA had armory board instead), the covers, the lack of Chaos Spell cards, the lack of the term "Game System," the fewer artifacts (which have no label, they're "Quest Treasures" here), the comic book style card art (vs. the "oil painting" versions of them in the NA edition), the double blocked square tiles looking more like rubble (vs. the stone walls in the NA edition), the different character sheets and different Hero character/turn cards, more lore lines (and altered names) in the booklets, Character cards lack the turn options on the back and are taller with base attack instead of a starting weapon, etc.

Those that own 2nd edition (whether the original or Advanced Quest Edition), I rely on you to compare!

Enjoy:

[Kurgan]

More in the series (again 1st edition, 1989, my personal copy):

[Kurgan]

More of my first edition cards...

[Kurgan]

More 1st edition cards from my set...

[Kurgan]

Last of my 1st edition set cards...

I didn't snap photos of all, but even the backs of the four hero cards have different "parchment stains"

[Kurgan]

Here's a picture of the candy tray (I know, getting off topic, but before I forget), not my image, this one I snagged from an ebay sale...