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Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

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Re: Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

Postby RECIVS » Tuesday July 16th, 2024 1:06am

Neuralstasis wrote:Cheers for the discussion, nice to have someone interested.

Interested? I'd say obsessed |_P

Neuralstasis wrote:Bit of a problem with how i'm playing and our conversation is that I'm using the latest Reforged and the latest Re-Reforged, which is I believe is designed to be applied to the previous version of Reforged. I haven't used or read the previous Reforged so some of the references in the latest Re-Reforged and your suggestions above don't make quite make sense.
Things like:
RECIVS wrote:None of my characters starts with stat scores of 11 or 12; they start slightly weaker than in AHQ. In any case, what's so problematic about it?

My player just went Base (INT 4) human (+1) -> Wizard (+1) - > Adept -> Mage (+1) -> bonus point (+1) and got a base INT stat of 8. Then plus Re-Reforged's 1d4 would give a range of 9-12. Was the character creation system a bit different in the previous Reforged version?

and in the Re-Reforged PDF there's a number of mentions of specialisation to do with training, but I can't find any reference to specialisation in the current Reforged. So I'm bumbling through it making a lashed together monster of rules! :D

A monster indeed! Yes, Re-Reforged V1.81a was designed for Reforged V2020. As I posted in the other thread here, the current version of Reforged doesn't work, and I believe I recommended using my example GM play sheet along with staying away from character-creation rules for the moment (until V1.82a comes out).

Neuralstasis wrote:
RECIVS wrote:The 1d4 roll is a mechanic I added to preserve the essence and feel of the random character-creation process in AHQ (sometimes you'll roll high and sometimes low just as in the original). You may see randomness is absent in Slev's Hero-creation system, which is not the "feel" of the original game if you ask me.

Each to their own, but I actually hate the idea of randomness with character creation. I don't like the idea that one player's character could be much better than another just cos they rolled better in their initial d4 rolls. I used my own system of a set of bonus point (1, 2 ,2 ,3, 3, 3) that they can distribute between WS, BS, TH, SP, BR and INT. The result is basically the same statistically except that no one can roll a "4".

Fair enough, though in RL there are not two identical persons. I think that's what randomness emulates in character-creation systems. However, your method may be better than simply adding +2 to each stat, though it would still be the same result statistically. On the other hand, what prevents players from coming up with the same character every time in your system?

In AHQ, players may have a different game experience every time they play, even if they select the same character, and, as I've said, the approach here is to preserve the essence and feel of AHQ as much as possible. You're free to tweak to your liking.

Neuralstasis wrote:
RECIVS wrote:My version of Magnus starts with IN9 (as he was lucky with the dice and has trained once already), so if you think it's too much, you may simply apply -2INT (or +2 instead of +1d4 during character creation). That would mean he couldn't train past IN10 in any case, though he may be able to use some other items and abilities to improve his INT.

In the current Reforged it appears that you can train all of the core characteristics up to 3 points at an increasing gold cost, which would put values of above 10 pretty accessible. But again maybe this is a incompatibility with different versions.

An additional rank of training was introduced in the current version of Reforged, seemingly in an attempt to bring it back to the original "scale", but I'm afraid that's not possible without tweaking the bestiaries too. This is one of the changes in Reforged that it's to be ignored in Re-Reforged. Only two ranks of training are allowed in Re-Reforged (except WS) plus Specialization (see Heroic Skills in Play Sheets).

Neuralstasis wrote:
RECIVS wrote:No healing spells, herbs, or potions? How are you healing your adventurers then?

Healing spell. And with enhancing as written, he can fully heal two heroes with each cast. The other heroes in the party have a few herbs to supplement. The power of his spells is going to be reduced now that I'm putting back in specific spell components.

May I ask what do you mean by "putting back in specific spell components"?

Neuralstasis wrote:
RECIVS wrote:I'd stick to the original spells as much as possible, though. I don't think they're as unbalanced as you say. Could you please provide examples?

It more of an obvious issue when looking at all the spell books as a whole. Because the original AHQ spell books were created and released one at a time they don't seems to compliment each other. The bright wizard is supposed to be a wizard of fire and destruction, which can even be a danger to their team mates. But they still get a full powered heal spell and a resurrection spell? Shouldn't healing and resurrection be more limited to the less aggressive magic orders? which in turn should have less damaging spells?
Who would ever waste a spell cast on "Flight" or "The Bright Key" (as written in original AHQ)? What horrible spells compared to a simple fireball or heal.
The Amethyst spell "Soul Steel" gives a single bonus 1 toughness = Rubbish.
Why does the Light spell "sleep of ages" allow sleeping targets to be hit at +4 to hit, but the Amethyst Spell "Sleep" make the target have a WS count as 1 when attacking them. Why the different rules to attack a sleeping target? = Poorly thought out.
Reforged (no disrespect Slev) make the spells rather more boring. Every wizard now has access to heal and resurrect and a lot of the spells are called different things in different spellbooks but do exactly the same thing.

What I would like to see is wizards having to weigh up whether they want an offensive spell set, a healing spell set, a buff spell set, a debuff spell set etc. These could all be linked to the Warhammer background appropriate magic orders. It would be good to have more and less powerful versions of spell so that, for example a bright wizard would have a heal spell, but it can only heal a max of 5 wounds, whereas a Jade wizard would have a heal spell that healed unlimited wounds. There could be heal spells that healed 3 wounds to every target in adjacent squares, a group heal.

Sounds interesting. I'll look into it when I get into magic.

Neuralstasis wrote:
RECIVS wrote:So, what loot and treasures tables are you using again?

I'm using the ones as written in the latest version of Reforged.

Slev's treasure tables may be too generous (they were even more so in the 2020 version). You may want to switch to 10GCs*PV for monster loot and also use the original Treasure Chest Table from TitD and see how it goes. You may use Slev's Treasure Chest Table as optional for less difficulty.
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Re: Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

Postby Neuralstasis » Tuesday July 16th, 2024 9:13pm

RECIVS wrote:A monster indeed! Yes, Re-Reforged V1.81a was designed for Reforged V2020. As I posted in the other thread here, the current version of Reforged doesn't work, and I believe I recommended using my example GM play sheet along with staying away from character-creation rules for the moment (until V1.82a comes out).


Oh that's no fun, I'm just going to have to wing it for now. I'll take a point of INT and BR off each character for a start. Please bring out V1.82a so I can stop mucking it all up! :lol:

RECIVS wrote:On the other hand, what prevents players from coming up with the same character every time in your system?

If two players want to make exactly the same character then that's fine by me. I aint playing enough games to expect to see any twins as GM anyway.

RECIVS wrote:May I ask what do you mean by "putting back in specific spell components"?

I mentioned a few posts back that, in an effort to simplify gameplay, I allowed wizard characters in previous AHQ games to just have generic "Spell components" that they could use for any spell, rather than requiring specific "phoenix feather" or "fire dust". It saved space on players character sheets and they didnt have to look up what each spell cost each time they cast. They just had to reduce their tally of "Spell Components" by 1 or 2 each time they cast. I think cos my last campaign only had one half-wizard/fighter player character, magic didnt seem too overpowered. But now this alter allegiance spell is ruining things!

RECIVS wrote:Slev's treasure tables may be too generous (they were even more so in the 2020 version). You may want to switch to 10GCs*PV for monster loot and also use the original Treasure Chest Table from TitD and see how it goes. You may use Slev's Treasure Chest Table as optional for less difficulty.


10GC per PV was the system I came up with in my previous campaign which seemed to work ok. Slev's loot table to seem to be pretty generous and they dont scale with PV's of the encountered monsters. I do like his treasure chest table, but im only giving players a single roll on it, rather than the party strength rolls.
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Re: Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

Postby RECIVS » Monday August 26th, 2024 8:58pm

RECIVS wrote:V1.82a will come with its own stand-alone book of core rules, which will override Slev's in its entirety for the first time. No more jumping between rulebooks.

I just uploaded it here. A list of updates is included as usual. You may see that some rules have been clarified according to what has been discussed on the forum boards in the last couple of years. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I'm now putting the appendices togehter, which will be independent from Slev's too. That'll take me a few more weeks, but you can use my core rules in the meantime.
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Re: Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

Postby Neuralstasis » Friday August 30th, 2024 1:26am

Great. I'll have a look when I can.
Do you want to post this in a separate Re-Reforged topic so I don't clutter up my thread moaning about Amethyst wizards with feedback about re-reforged?
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Re: Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

Postby RECIVS » Friday August 30th, 2024 2:05pm

Neuralstasis wrote:Great. I'll have a look when I can.
Do you want to post this in a separate Re-Reforged topic so I don't clutter up my thread moaning about Amethyst wizards with feedback about re-reforged?

You're right. I should have posted it in your other thread where it belongs. I thought we had already solved the issue with Alter Allegiance, though.
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Re: Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

Postby Dieterdg84 » Monday September 30th, 2024 3:30pm

To get back on topic on this.
What about this on Alter Allegiance:

The Wizard may pick six enemy models within six squares. Each of the chose opponents must make an Intelligence test. If the test is failed, the model changes side - it is now controlled by the Wizard player, and may even attack its former comrades. The effect lasts for 2 combat rounds, then the affected models reverts to enemy status.

Not really playtested this yet, but I think this might be somewhat comparable to a fireball spell damage wise? And now there's a chance they survive the spell and fight back, instead of just running away.
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