Walking over furniture

[Ethica]

Question-

Do you allow walking over furniture, standing on furniture to attack or moving furniture? Would seem odd not to be allowed to do these things, but then it takes away the use of furniture to control how many lines of attack there are etc.

Any thoughts on this anyone?

[drathe]

Furniture blocks movement. As for line-of-sight, I use a bit of logic. Ranged weapons can be used over tables, chests and other low furnishings. (unless you're the Dwarf)

[Ryno]

I let my heroes stand on tables and attack and defend normally because it makes them feel cool and help bottlenecking issues.

[el_flesh]

Our DM lets shorter monsters and dwarf do it, too...

[Ethica]

Our DM lets shorter monsters and dwarf do it, too...

I suppose that's a good point as the dungeon ceiling will probably be quite low.

[torilen]

I actually have been working on figuring out a method of allowing characters to move furniture - I was kind of basing it on the
rules used in the original quest book, when moving the prince's treasure chests. A character could only move one space at a time,
and the type of furniture allowed would be based on the Body Points - say, the throne (or a chair) could be moved by anyone
with at least 3 body points, a regular table could be dragged by anyone with at least 5 body points, and a bookcase could be
moved by anyone with at least 7 body points.
of course, if you want to use two characters, you could have a combined number of body points to equal the above.

Something like that could work. This could actually allow them to use a table to bookcase to block a doorway, and force the
monsters to waste a few movement spaces climbing over the table, or they would have to find a monster with enough
body points (i.e. strength) to move the piece of furniture.

[Daedalus]

My reply to a post about the Dwarven Forge Quest is relevant here. I added additional material in blue text.

Ok, I've always wondered about this for as long as I've owned this Quest Pack, so for 17 years now or something like that.... In Quest 4: The Dwarven Forge, what the heck is the deal with Room F !? How do you get in there? Seriously? I mean, I suppose you could use a Pass Through Rock to get in there, but then what? How are you getting out? Because as far as I know, there are no "official" rules on moving Chests (and/or passing through them for that matter), save Prince Magnus' Gold in the Main System where it appears they created the rule specifically for that Quest to complete the objective. So...anyone?

For a game that has furniture so prevalent, the rules are strangely reticent on how to deal with it. It's basically eye-candy for 12 year-olds. Are there any relevant rules that can be used to infer what to do with a chest?
As you pointed out, Quest 4, Prince Magnus' Gold allows a chest to be carried. If you want more from the Instruction Book, pp. 12-13 movement prohibitions and allowances found under Hero Movement could be a good place to start:

... Then,
move carefully along the corridors and
into rooms square by square....

... When moving, however, you can-
not pass over monsters, move through
walls or move diagonally. You MAY
pass over other Heroes. You may only
enter rooms through doors. You may
not share a square with another Hero
or with a monster. Exceptions: When
on the stairs or in pit traps, sharing a
square is permitted.

The first sentence of the second section states what is strictly prohibited to move through; the second and third sentences state what is allowed to pass over/ through. Furniture isn't included in either. (The last sentences similarly discuss shared squares.) Does non-inclusion of furniture in the MAY pass sentence suggest a prohibition? Perhaps, but probably not if another pass over/ move through case exists that wasn't put in the MAY pass over/ through sentences above and is discussed in the rules. Two such cases are jumping over traps and disarming traps.

Jumping a Trap
As a Hero, if your path is blocked by a
trap, you may attempt to pass by jump-
ing over it. To jump over a trap, you
must do the following:

<> You must have at least two squares of
movement remaining, as if you moved
onto the trap square and then onto one
unoccupied ADJACENT square beyond.

<> You must roll anything but a skull on
1 combat die to jump the trap. If a
skull is rolled, you spring the trap,
suffering the body damage caused by
that particular type of trap. If there is a
corresponding trap tile, it will then be
put on the gameboard by Zargon. You
are then put on the trap square. This
ends your turn.

<>If you avoid rolling a skull, you can
jump over the trap, expending two
moves. If you have any moves remaining
from your dice roll, you may then
continue your move.

A Hero may pass over traps (given the 2 square minimum), just as a Hero may pass through another Hero or through an open doorway . A trap feature isn't a standard corridor or room square- in fact, it has a special tile to be placed. Additional moves over or through a single square containing an obstacle are allowed in the game rules. Furniture, another type of obstacle, could similarly be passed, it's just not listed under the movement section (as with traps).

Some interpretation is needed to apply existing rules to furniture, however. A chest or throne is 3-D and movable in many circumstances, while a pit isn't. When a Hero simply wants to jump over a one-square piece of furniture, and there is a qualifying empty adjacent square beyond, use the Jumping a Trap rule. However, substitute obstacle for trap. An obstacle is defined as a trap or single-square furniture piece. The furniture becomes a kind of trap, with a penalty for failure- 1 Body Point of damage. As it's difficult to fit a furniture piece like a chest and a Hero in the same square, the Hero should be allowed to move to an empty adjacent square beyond, even if a Body Point was suffered.

This jumping over a trap/obstacle rule can be modified to jumping onto furniture as well. An obstacle for this purpose includes any piece of furniture no taller than the Hero. Should a Hero fall, the controlling player places him in an open square adjacent to the furniture piece. If the Hero is jumping onto furniture that easily supports the figure (ie. table), then failure only results if a black shield is rolled. Also, fighting is difficult on a perch. A new roll of the combat die must be made at the beginning of each Hero turn that a Hero fights on furniture. While fighting on furniture, the Hero gains 1 white combat die for both attacking and defending.

There will be times when a Hero will instead wish to move the obstacle, as with the chest in Quest 4. The Disarm A Trap action may be applied to this case, but instead of removing a trap (an obstacle) from the gameboard, a piece of furniture (an obstacle) is moved on the gameboard. No tool kit is needed. Normally, rolling a skull results in failure, but a chest only causes a failure if a black shield is rolled. As lifting heavy dungeon furniture isn't easy, failing the disarm a trap/move attempt means that piece can't be moved by the Hero, that turn or later in the Quest. Any traps on the furniture will also be sprung, if not disarmed previously. A successful disarm a trap/move roll allows the Hero to move the furniture into an adjacent space, or carry the item on the following turns. If carrying furniture, Move is limited to 1 red die, as with plate mail. Any traps on the furniture will be sprung if not disarmed previously. As with the Dwarf's anything-but-a-black-shield die roll to Disarm a Trap, the Barbarian should alone enjoy the same odds to move or carry a piece of furniture; his strength makes him the natural heavy-lifter.

These suggestions aren't exactly rules that are printed in the Instruction Booklet, but rather are an extension of them. I hope this house-ruling of the rules is sufficiently grounded to be acceptable for dealing not only with the chest in The Forge of KK, but other cases, as well. From there, larger furniture pieces could be allowed, but I wanted to keep things focused.

My personal opinion is that the chest/secret door combo was intentional with the assumption that a Hero was not prohibited from moving/carrying the chest. I see the Quest rules in Prince Magnus' Gold as a precursor and validation of that assumption. So the above suggestions could all be shucked out the window in favor of simply allowing the chest to be moved- period.

[el_flesh]

We call it by ear, depending on the quest. Because it is just a game, we don't consider how heavy it would actually be to not only carry but also fight with 250 Au frikkin coins on your person!
We can explain that away with "the Au is secured in the room and you will be back for it later , and then leave it in town with your stash..." "you have a peasant flunky with you, whose job it is to do nothing but take your loot back to the entrance when the coast is clear..."

In terms of furniture, if you're moving a heavy chest, the rules above seem perfect to me! Also depends who's trying to lift it. The wizard probably couldn't lift a gold-stacked chest no matter what. The elf would have a hard time. The dwarf might be able to heft it with 2 red dice anyway!
As for falling over a chest - the only person who might not be able to turn a fall into a shoulder roll would be the wizard - anyone else would simply roll and take no body damage at all. For someone deft like the elf; he automatically succeeds the jump!
This also relates to 'training' concept - the wizard could take some combat training in town so he learns how to turn a fall into a roll. For some Au of course! Hey, he might even follow a hard lifting course and gain some respectable muscle!

[Daedalus]

For carrying gold coin treasure, I go with the old AD&D standard of 1 gp=1/10th of a pound. That makes 250 gold=25 lbs. + the weight and bulk of the chest. Seems like any carried treasure chest would have to be put down before fighting. Otherwise there should be an extreme penalty, like the in shock rules lay down in the BQP.

I'm toying with the idea that the Elf is better at stuff like in the Lord of the Rings movies. Haven't included it in these rules yet, as it starts to overbalance things in his favor. I previously figured he could fight on any furniture with a failure only possible with a black shield result. Your ideas have merit, too. I mostly included the BP of damage to attach a penalty for a risky move that gave a benefit. Falling flat on your face could lose an action, instead.

I'm working on a more open role-play roll for such situations in general. If it works it will translate to more interpretations, such as your case of a Wizard having a harder time at jumping furniture or lifting heavy things. I wanna keep it balanced, and I wanna keep it lean. When I'm ready to post, I hope it reaches more of the range that you put in your games. The problem with house rules is if you're too ambitious, then fewer people will want to use them. Already, the specific stuff above seems to require a little too much reading, which probably turns a lot of people off. Not that that has ever stopped me from posting anyway. Sometimes you get some positive replies that let you know which ones are more useful.

[SonandDad]

Question-

Do you allow walking over furniture, standing on furniture to attack or moving furniture? Would seem odd not to be allowed to do these things, but then it takes away the use of furniture to control how many lines of attack there are etc.

Any thoughts on this anyone?

Furniture blocks movement. As for line-of-sight, I use a bit of logic. Ranged weapons can be used over tables, chests and other low furnishings. (unless you're the Dwarf)

I agree that the use of the furniture controls the direction of movement and the lines of attack, yet allowing ranged weapons to fire over treasure chests, etc. does make some sense.

As far as quest 4 in KK "The Dwarven Forge" is concerned. The UK version doesn't have room F, however looking it up in the NA version on the site, we allow furniture to slide one square to reveal secret doors, if searched. Any character on the square that the furniture needs to move to, we roll as if a falling block trap.It look as if this would work here.

Carrying the Chests in Prince Magnus's Gold I think is unique to that quest as it is stated within the specific quest rules.

think el_flesh really sums it up

it is just a game,