Creative Mod Progression.

[mitchiemasha]

Seeing as I'm disagreeing a lot recently, I wanted to clarify with an example of how I progressed with a mod. As in realising issues, why you choose to add certain words or completely move from 1 Mod to another. In most cases we're not attacking the idea... As they're usually very similar to the ideas we all started with or tried first.

Problem: Monsters die too easy, EW role gets boring, never gets to attack... Heroes don't feel threatened. The first solution is to increase monster stats... but, this fails once the heroes get stronger. And, monsters don't really have characteristics that separate them out well, making them more unique adds interesting variety. Reverse thinking can be a good idea. What are famous fantasy mechanics? What would be the best way to implement similar in HeroQuest?

Keeping everything super simple and as less wordy as possible, this was the Fimir.

Tail bash: Free counter Attack

That tail is huge, it's looks like a threat... so make it one. Not just via an extra Cd6. Attack him and there's a good chance that tails going to give you a good bash, your hands are already engaged with it's hands but, that's only the fantasy aspect of why. If you're a dual wielding weaker room clearer, you might want to avoid this guy, leaving him for the more barbarous or heavily defended types. It also works towards giving the EW more attacks, often only placing monsters to be slaughtered. First guy fails, you get an attack before the 2nd chops your beast to pieces. Counter Attack is a loved fantasy mechanic, to include it in HQ, using the Fimir is the most logical choice.

After a few playtest (or those who know HQ well) this has a few HUGE issues!

but when is this counter attack triggered?

Tail Bash: Free counter attack when attacked

What if it is killed?

Tail Bash: Free counter attack when attacked and not killed

What if it's attacked by a crossbow?

Tail Bash: Free Counter Attack when attacked adjacent and not killed

Per the wording... Even a diagonal attack puts you out of reach, it's for the Heroes to figure that out, if they're a weaker hero, a much better way to attack one, more value to the spear. The fun part of HeroQuest was always the exploration of ways to win it. Coming up with little things that adventures come to realise is the true beauty of creating mods, in my opinion!!!

[DullandRusty]

do you include the monster bonuses on their card you make or just reveal the stats and have the heroes go into the fight with the fimir or other monster unaware of the bonus ability? I like the idea of the heroes being unaware of a monster's bonus ability when they first encounter it, but I also like having it available to see on the card. Maybe the best option for me is to have the card sleeved and just black out the ability via a dry erase marker until the monster performs that ability in a fight vs the heroes.

[mitchiemasha]

That's a concept I hadn't thought about. I've always liked the, you're not quite sure until it happens... which is something that features in the original quests, specifically the Gargoyle!

I suppose it would be on the Fimir card... and this would be revealed to the hero when first attacking one. Not much of a secret but still a surprise!!!

[Jafazo]

Solid idea, seems to work well. Watch those triggers. Last thing you need is a hero having his own automatically triggered attack being set off by the Firmir's triggered attack resulting in trigger after trigger after trigger until one dies immediately before anyone else can act.

A couple questions that hit me, what happens if a Firmir attacks a Firmir? What if the Firmir is put to sleep and attacked, does counter still trigger? Attacking as an action triggers Counter but what about casting a spell? Specifically, a spell like fire of wrath or Fireball. The game classifies those as Casting Spells regardless of their resulting damage, not as using the Attack action. Does casting Fire of Wrath on an adjacent Firmir trigger Counter? What if the spell Chains of Darkness from WoZ expansion is used on the Firmir then other heroes attack it, will Counter still trigger after each attack? If the Firmir is paralyzed by hypnotic blaze can it still counter?

[Anderas]

I've always found that too specific questions are best clarified the moment they appear in real life, as many of those situations may likely never appear.

Also I've seen that it is very helpful if special abilities are first tried with mercenaries or as quest specific addition to one monster, like, in this quests all Fimirs have the counter attack. That helps rooting out and finding problems and munchkins, before the standard monster gets this perk.

It always helps to have something you can constantly adapt. I like to simulate everything before trying in a real game, but surprises are still normal. Players tend to behave differently and to be creative in ways that are not always foreseeable.

So if you have an unforeseen munchkin or problem, it is nice if you can adapt.
In that vein monster specials are somewhat easier as you only need to root out the problems but not the special combos with this or that equipment or potion.

I am now in Anderas Heroquest V3 and I can see no end. Maybe I want to see no end. My first try was too rpg-ish, too many options, too many rules that ended up not being used.
Second version was much simpler and I used many of the symbols from the font HQModern. After a time I found out that too many symbols are as annoying as the original texts.
In my V3 I have no symbols, more cards, a maximum compatibility with other people's stuff, and a simple gameplay. Now I miss and for the BP and MP, and for dice. So probably those will come back, along with very few others.

[mitchiemasha]

A couple questions that hit me

All very good question... HeroQuest doesn't go into such detail in it's own writing. You can play any of the rules not stipulated as you feel fit, applying your own logic.

Spells: This is covered by adjacent. If you are adjacent and attack... you'll get a bash. If you're not adjacent you wont. I'd class damage inducing spells as an attack but not Sleep, which is also the Ranger Skill, Tame Beast. A Wizard stood next to a Fimir deserves all the bashing he can get... Not the brightest of Wizards.

Triggers Being Triggered: A counter attack is a counter attack not an "attack", therefore doesn't trigger a hero that would have autocounter, which isn't a Hero skill in my game. The only similar I'm going to add is some sort of First Strike, a reaction to Wandering Monsters or a block preventing their attack, an idea I got from Dougy Destroyers Skill Tree. but, I haven't thought it through or tried it yet. It's probably going to be tied to a fate token mechanic, a result of meeting a gypsy, a fortune teller in the prequest town system. I already had the Gypsy... she needed a good effect that wasn't too strong, thinking about it now, as i type, it seems like a perfect idea. There's also a very rare Spiked Shield, this attacks in defence but is in your defence roll, not an extra attack. Heroes with Counter Attack would be seriously OP, game braking, as the first version of the Spiked Shield showed me.

[Jafazo]

I've always found that too specific questions are best clarified the moment they appear in real life, as many of those situations may likely never appear.

It's very likely. One of the Wizards best moves is to try and put a boss monster to sleep while everyone else attacks it before it wakes. I prefer to patch or address as many possible problems to stabilize content before it gets out of hand.

I am now in Anderas Heroquest V3 and I can see no end. Maybe I want to see no end.

Anderas Heroquest V3!? Is there some link or forum topic with the details to this version? I'd like to read up on it. I think I looked through a version somewhere on this forum that was using tons of icons, that might've been your version 2.

[benvoliothefirst]

Hey Anderas, glad to hear you're moving away from the icon-laden version. I think cross-compatibility and simplicity should be the primary goal for mods.

[mitchiemasha]

I've always found that too specific questions are best clarified the moment they appear in real life, as many of those situations may likely never appear.

It's very likely. One of the Wizards best moves is to try and put a boss monster to sleep while everyone else attacks it before it wakes. I prefer to patch or address as many possible problems to stabilize content before it gets out of hand.

and covered it is... Putting a monster to sleep isn't an attack, therefore, no tail bash regardless to positioning. When the next hero attacks, the sleep spell states "it cannot move, attack or defend itself" that's no counter attack. But, in the UK version, the monster awakes if attacked* so there's a good chance of getting a good bosh if your stood next to it and failed to kill it whilst sleeping. Which i hadn't thought about until you mentioned it and... I like it!

*lets not forget, the last 2 words of the UK sleep spell, if taken literally, undo the importance of the words in the sentence before. The UK sleep spell isn't wrote very well. It's still the version i prefer, just take the awakening to mean the heroes get 1 undefended attack. Which seriously fixes the issue of sleeping bosses.

other version of the mod were
Tail Bash: Free counter attack when blocking all hits (but what if the hero fails to hit, surely that could be countered more).
Tail Bash: Free counter attack when a hero fails to wound
Tail Bash: Free counter attack when rolling a in defence

It doesn't matter which one is played, each has it's own unique twists to the specifics. I'm up for any, as long as that Tail gets to bash!!!

[mitchiemasha]

Another point to clarify about the sleep spell is... When the word 'shield' is used, does that mean any and all shields, making it 50/50 chance or just a :black shield:! 1 in 6. which is exactly the same as rolling a 6 on 1 RED die for each Mind. There's no reason to make this turnly roll be the RED die. It should of stayed the combat dice.

No need to go into that here as we have countless threads already discussing how badly both versions of the spells are wrote. Technically, in the US version, you'd only be able to roll once, immediately or on a future turn to try and break it. Another example of them fixing a "non issue" of the UK version and making it worse.