A Dicey Dilemma

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I've searched high and low but couldn't find any similar topics so either I have posted this in the wrong place, in which case if anyone is willing and able to move it I would be grateful or you guys aren't great fans of statistic debate, can't say I blame you, but you don't have to respond as I'm not holding a crossbow to your head (too bulky, I'm more of a throwing knife kind of character).

As discussed elsewhere on this forum I am in the process of creating a HQ / AHQ Best of Both hybrid and am facing a dicey dilemma and could do with some input, either hard stats or soft opinions!

The core mechanism(s) of my game system will be tests and contests, there are additional frills planned but the basic outline is below;

Tests are when you wish to determine the outcome of an action against an inanimate object such as leaping over a chasm. The Narrator will determine the difficulty of the task in the form of a target number for example 6+, any relevent modifiers for skills, abilities, kit and so on are agreed, you roll the die or dice, apply the mods and if you meet or exceed the difficulty number the outcome is successful, otherwise the outcome is unsuccessful

Contests are similar to tests but are used when two characters are in contest for the same objective. An obvious example would be two characters attacking one another. Again modifiers are agreed with the Narrator up front, then the die or dice are rolled, the mods applied and the highest score wins.

My dilemma is whether to go with a single twelve-sided die (D12) or two six-sided dice (2D6) for my core mechanism. So pros (+) and cons (-);

2D6 option

+Six sided dice are more readily available and are familiar to even the youngest of players

-For tests the difference in probability of a given result changes depending on the difficulty of the task, the closer to the middle of the results you get the more impact a +1 bonus will have. This makes the odds harder to calculate and means that skills and abilities have a decreasing effect the further away from an average difficulty task i.e. on very easy and very hard tasks.

D12 option

+For tests, as you are rolling a single die, the results are evenly spread and the odds are easy to caculate, a +1 bonus will always increase the odds by a fixed amount ~8%

+Rolling one die is easier than rolling two and totalling

+Playing with unusual dice is more fun than boring old D6's. (added by Goblin-King)

Applying The Bareheaded Warrior's Principle of Design

I could list pros and cons all evening, and feel free to add the many that I missed, but perhaps I need to apply "The Bareheaded Warrior's Principle of Design" (the capitals are essential to generate the correct atmosphere), which is in essence "What do I want to get out of it?"

1. A good wide range of outcomes in contests so whatever the odds, there should be at least a sliver of a chance - your thief armed with just a simple dagger, takes on a monster armed with a battleaxe and encased from head to toe in armour, the odds should be on the side of the monster, clearly but there must be a chance, an outside chance, a freak roll that swings the outcome.

2. That said, for contests most dice totals should be close with a generous proportion falling within +/-1, +/-2 or at a stretch +/-3 to allow skills and abilities to be worth having, after all the world is not entirely random (although it may feel that way sometimes)

3. Don't want every other roll to be a draw and this would unneccessarily delay the outcome, draws can add to the tension but only if they are not too regular.

4. Simple and elegant as possible

Bearing those points in mind, and more which I will inevitably throw in at a later point just to move the goal posts, which option would you go with and why?

[Goblin-King]

Basically I think this boils down to whether you want the average of 7 on the 2D6 or the evenly distributed odds on the D12.

Personally I'd prefer D12 because of the even odds. In the long run even a D12 has an average of 6,5, just with another spread.
But which ever you choose, you'll just have to adjust the mechanics to reflect which outcomes you generally want.

also

+Playing with unusual dice is more fun than boring old D6's.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I think with regards to a test D12 wins hands down, but with regards to a contest D12 v D12 or 2D6 v 2D6 I have a feeling the 2D6 might win which leaves me with an issue as I don't want to change dice half-way through

[Goblin-King]

Can you explain how a contest works in your game?

Is combat simply, both roll dice, highest score gets to punch the other?
If that's the case 2D6 won't change a thing as the opponent will have the same odds as you. Now we will just have a lot more draws.

I assume some modifiers will allow you to change your odds? A single +1 will have a much greater impact on 2D6 I guess since both rolls 7 on average.

I think you should create 3-5 different characters with different stats and try pitting them against each other with the different dice systems and simply test what feels best.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Is combat simply, both roll dice, highest score gets to punch the other?

A masterly summary and basically yes!
I need to do some stats crunching to work out some of the odds around draws between the D12 and 2D6 options, but the idea of using 2D6 is to keep the potential range high (as in a swing of 0-10) so anything is possible, but the tendency for the unmodified totals to be close means that mods play an important part as they should (no point being a master swordsman if the combat results are random) so I also need to work out how many of the results fall within a certain common mods range like +/-2 or 3.

I think you should create 3-5 different characters with different stats and try pitting them against each other with the different dice systems and simply test what feels best.

Great minds think alike, I was just chatting last night about creating a mini-game called Gladiators to test out the combat and therefore contests balance

[Goblin-King]

Another possibility would be to use a lower die, D10 or D8.
Is there any reason in particular why you choose D12?

With a lower die the spread is less and modifiers will have a bigger impact. +1 on a D100 is irrelevant while its +25% on a D4!

[IvenBach]

With a lower die the spread is less and modifiers will have a bigger impact. +1 on a D100 is irrelevant while its +25% on a D4!

If I can butt in here. If your are looking for a more random possibility use D12 as it's a straight even chance of what shows on the dice. If you, however, are looking for a more bonus (+1/+2) centered game where bonuses are more favored and important go with 2d6 as it favors averages. I mulled over this same idea for D&D and using 3d6 instead of a single d20 to even out the random chance more. I only mention D&D because of pure luck 20's rolled killing the boss in 1 blow is so anti-climatic, same goes for a hero getting killed in 1 shot. Especially if it's the first hit the character has ever taken after several gaming sessions.

To have a better idea which system would be best could you give more info as to how it'd play out?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I’ve taken the advice given earlier and have built five characters designed to cover a broad range of abilities, skills and equipment and have thrown them head-to-head in single combat. Each of the five will fight each of the others, each pair fighting three contests in an attempt to balance out wild rolls.

The Cast

The Tank +1 CC, +3 Dam, 10+ Armour

Skills & Abilities; Strong Build (+1 Damage), Fighter (+1 CC)
Weapons; Long Axe (+2 Damage)
Armour; Mail Hauberk (7+), Plate Armour (+2), Helmet (+1)

The Thug +0 CC, -1 Dam, 5+ Armour

Skills & Abilities; None
Weapons; Stave (-1 Damage)
Armour; Padded Jack (5+)

The Barbarian +2 CC, +3 Dam, 5+ Armour

Skills & Abilities; Massive Build (+2 Damage, +1 Armour), Fighter (+1 CC), Dual Wield (+1CC)
Weapons; Broadsword (+1 Damage), Battle Axe
Armour; None

The Warrior +3 CC, +0 Dam, 7+ Armour

Skills & Abilities; Fighter (+1 CC), Dual Wield (+1CC)
Weapons; Long knife, Shield (+1 CC)
Armour; Jack of Plates (6+), Helmet (+1)

The Warrior Champion +4 CC, +0 Dam, 8+ Armour

Skills & Abilities; Veteran (+2 CC), Dual Wield (+1CC)
Weapons; Long knife, Shield (+1 CC)
Armour; Mail Hauberk (7+), Helmet (+1)

The Rules

1. Both protagonists roll 2D6 apply the CC (Close Combat) modifiers indicated on their summary above and the one with the highest score has landed an effective strike against his opponent. In the case of a draw the stronger character prevails, otherwise both reroll.

Note; if one score is MORE THAN three points higher than the other that character has executed a particularly well aimed strike and gains +3 bonus to their damage roll

Note; A score of double one (or ‘Snake Eyes’) totals to two and no positive modifiers are applied to your total.

2. The character who successfully lands an effective blow on their opponent must them make a damage test to determine the outcome. Roll 2D6, add your damage modifier and the total is less than your opponents armour value then opponent is stunned by the blow and you press home your advantage and attack again with a +3 bonus to your roll. If your total is greater than or equal to your opponent’s armour value then your opponent drops to the floor incapacitated*. You have won the fight.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I can't post attachments and it'll take too long to reformat the results to post, so I've uploaded them here; http://smokinggnu.net/downloads/Combat_Test.docx

[gootchute]

I'm not sure what your vision of this project is, but the combat seems nothing like either HQ or AHQ. No offense intended though, it is quite elegant. I think it is a very nice combat system for a rules-light skirmish game, and you are on to something with the stun, attack again to kill mechanism... It is kind of like the critical hit system in AHQ (bonus attack), but less random and made into an integral part of combat.

If you are trying to capture the best of both HQ and AHQ you should probably use the combat system from either one or the other, and neither combat system uses 2d6. Perhaps if you elaborate more on your project I could offer more solid advise.