Please help-Suggestions for Hero Progression

[stellarnova]

I am really interested in creating a custom hero progression system for HQ. I've popped around here for about a week after my regular play group agreed to give HQ a try. I have never really progressed this game after the first few missions. But I think to give my playgroup an incentive to stick to this game, some character progression would help. My main obstacle is that I'm not very experienced with how the game works out after a few missions. So borrowing from another game I've played (StarWars Miniatures) I came up with some translations of abilities from that game to use as "Feats" for HQ. What I really need help with is suggestions for how to cost the feats. Some of the more powerful feats require or even replace previous ones. My basic idea is to give characters 1 point (name to be determined) after each mission which they can use to train for the new feats. No levels, no XP. No changing base stats. This system is similar to a dummed down version of that used in video games such as Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance. To balance this out, I don't have a problem with creating newer or more powerful monsters later in the game, but this thread is about costing the feats I want to include.

So without further ado, here are the feats I've translated over from other games:

Combat Feats

Accurate; 2SP (D, E only, replaces Careful Shot)
This hero gets +1 AD when using a ranged or thrown weapon.

Arcane Archer; 1SP (E only)
On your turn you may enchant an bolt, arrow or thrown weapon with an available spell, adding its effect to the normal AD. If the Attack is successfully defended, the result of the spell is lost as well.

Grim Determination; 3SP (B, D only)
Whenever this character would be dealt fatal damage, roll 2 combat dice. If both dice are shields (black or white) this character has 1 BP instead of dying.

Bodyguard; 1SP (B, D only)
If an adjacent ally would take damage from an attack, this character can take the damage instead.

Careful Shot; 2SP (D, E only)
If this character does not move, add +1 AD on all ranged attacks made this turn.

Charging Assault +1; 2SP (B only, replaces Momentum)
Replaces turn: Can move up to 12 squares (minus 2x armor penalty), then make a melee attack at +1 AD against an adjacent enemy.

Charging Assault +2; 2SP (B only, replaces Charging Assault +1)
Replaces turn: Can move up to 12 squares (minus 2x armor penalty), then make a melee attack at +1 AD against an adjacent enemy.

Cleave; 2SP (B, D only)
Once per turn, if this character defeats an adjacent enemy by making an attack, it can make 1 immediate attack against another adjacent enemy.

Deadly Attack; 2SP (B only)
If you roll at least 1 black shield, you may double the amount of white skulls rolled when counting hits.

Dodge; 3SP
This hero gets +1 Defense when not wearing any body armor.

Double Attack; 3SP
On its turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving.

Evade; 2SP (Replaces Dodge)
This Hero gets +1 Defense can count black shields as well as white shields when rolling for Defense. This ability cannot be used while wearing body armor.

Greater Mobile Attack; 2SP (replaces Mobile Attack)
This hero can move both before and after attacking. This hero can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but must make them all before resuming movement.

Soothe; 2SP
As an action, the Hero may heal 1 lost BP on an adjacent Hero or ally. This ability may only be used up to 3 times per adventure.

Mend ; 2SP (replaces Soothe)
As an action, the Hero may heal 2 lost BP on an adjacent Hero or ally. This ability may only be used up to 3 times per adventure.

Revive; 2SP (replaces Mend)
As an action, the Hero may heal 3 lost BP on an adjacent Hero or ally. This ability may only be used up to 3 times per adventure.

Impulsive Attack; 1SP
If an allied character is defeated, this hero can make 1 immediate attack.

Mighty Swing; 1SP (B, D)
On its turn, if this character doesn't move, it gets +1 AD against adjacent enemies.

Mobile Attack; 2SP
This character can move both before and after attacking.

Momentum; 2SP (B, D only)
If this hero has moved this turn, this hero gets +1 AD against adjacent enemies.

Berserker Rage 3SP (B only)
Your hero gets +1 AD for every 2 BP of damage received.

Twin Attack; 3SP
Whenever this character attacks, it makes 1 extra attack against the same target.

Casting Feats

Concentration; 2SP (requires Willpower)
Your hero's mana is now calculated at 1.5x their MP value. (This raises their starting mana in combination with Willpower and their maximum mana in combination with Mana Recovery and Mana Regenration)

Decipher Scroll; 2SP (W only)
Learn a spell from a scroll of the corresponding element. This ability can only be used once each time it is taken.

Dual Casting; 1SP
You many use up to two spells on one turn, paying their normal cost.

Elemental Mastery; 1SP (W only)
Choose: Water, Air, Fire or Earth. Re-casting spells of the chosen element costs one less mana. All spells of other elements cost one more mana to recast. This ability can only be taken once.

Mana Recovery; 3SP (requires Willpower)
Recover 1 mana point per turn. You total mana cannot exceed your Mind Points.

Mana Regeneration; 2SP (W only, replaces Mana Recovery)
Recover 2 mana points per turn. Your total mana cannot exceed your Mind Points.

Willpower; 2SP [x]
Your character starts each adventure with [X] Mana where [X] is equal to your Mind Points.

[stellarnova]

Derived from sadkitchens post, I intend to use this as a basis for hero characters to have the ability to cast spells multiple times during an adventure using mana points generated from the feats they can gain (so they won't be able to recast for some time):

Air
- Genie: 5 (Special note: A genie can only be cast three times per Quest)
- Swift Wind: 2
- Tempest: 3

Earth
- Heal Body: 6
- Pass Through Rock: 2
- Rock Skin: 3

Fire
- Ball of Flame: 4
- Courage: 6 (We use the lasts until you see no monsters opinion)
- Fires of Wrath: 2

Water
- Sleep: 4
- Veil of Mist: 2
- Water of Healing: 6

[Malcadon]

Not bad. It definitely has the UK system feel about it (being able to attack other Heroes as noted in Cunning Attack, and a general assumption that they may be unarmed).

I have been working on a system for special characters abilities for a sci-fi styled HQ game (which is posted on the Old Scratch forums). But much of it is non-combat related. Your list has a lot of useful combat maneuvers. Naturally, some abilities are worth more then others, but I still have to mull over them.

If I was to use them in my own games, here is how I would adjust them (all changes are in italic):

Combat Feats

Sure Shot (D, E only, replaces Careful Shot)
This hero gets +1 AD when using a ranged or thrown weapon.

Arcane Archer (E only)
On your turn you may enchant an bolt, arrow or thrown weapon with an available spell, adding its effect to the normal AD. If the Attack is successfully defended, the result of the spell is lost as well.

Grim Determination (B, D only)
Whenever this character would be dealt fatal damage, roll 2 combat dice. If both dice are shields this character has 1 BP instead of dying. (So what shields are being rolled here: black, white or both?)

Bodyguard (B, D only)
If an adjacent ally would take damage from an attack, this character can take the damage instead.

Careful Shot (D, E only)
If this character does not move, add +1 AD on all ranged attacks made this turn.

Charging Assault 1 (B only, replaces Momentum)
You may move your maximum move (no movement roll necessary), if you have the intention to stop at an adjacent foe, and attack it (with +1 AD per level). This ability maybe upgraded up to level 3, with each level adding an AD to attack.

Cleave (B, D only)
Once per turn, if this character defeats an adjacent enemy by making an attack, it can make 1 immediate attack against another adjacent enemy.

Deadly Dance (B, D only, replaces Cleave)
You may continue a Cleave until all adjacent enemies are attacked at least once.

Cunning Attack
This character gets +1 AD against a character that has not activated this round. (This is not going to work in the normal rules, as Heroes have a static marching order, and monsters always move/attack last. This rule only benefits if all Heroes, and monsters as a whole, make individual initiative rolls)

Deadly Attack (B only)
You may count Black Shields as hits when attacking.

Dodge (B, E only)
This hero gets +1 Defense when not wearing any armor. (Alternatively, this might only apply to "body armor", which would exempt helmets and shields.)

Double Attack
On its turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving.

Duelist
+1 Defense when attacked by an adjacent enemy as long as this hero has a weapon equipped.

Evade (B, E only, Replaces Dodge)
This Hero gets +1 Defense can count black shields as well as white shields when rolling for Defense. This ability cannot be used while wearing armor.

Greater Mobile Attack (replaces Mobile Attack)
This hero can move both before and after attacking. This hero can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but must make them all before resuming movement.

Treat Wounds 1
As an action, the Hero may heal 1 lost BP per level, on an adjacent Hero or ally. This ability maybe upgraded up to level 3.

Impulsive Attack
If an allied character is defeated, this hero can make 1 immediate attack.

Mighty Swing (B, D)
On its turn, if this character doesn't move, it gets +1 AD against adjacent enemies.

Mobile Attack
This character can move both before and after attacking.

Crowd-Cutter (B, E only, replaces Mobile Attack, and requires Deadly Dance)
May interrupt movement to attack enemies. Normally, the Hero can only attack once, but as long as the Hero defeats an enemy with a single strike, he may move to another monster (that has not already been attacked by that Hero) to attack it, and may keep moving until the Hero runs out of movement points. Twin Attack allows for a second chance to make a kill, but Crowd-Cutter cannot be combined with Charging Assault - which maximizes movement.

Momentum (B, D only)
If this hero has moved this turn, this hero gets +1 AD against adjacent enemies.

Opportunist
This hero gets +1 AD against an enemy who has activated this round. (As noted above in Cunning Attack, this is a redundant ability)

Berserk (B, D only)
May add +1 AD for every 3 BP of damage received. (The weapon clause feels redundant)

Twin Attack
Whenever this character attacks, it makes 1 extra attack against the same target.

Casting Feats

...

Without a fundamental understanding of the Magic System in play, I am going to omit them for the time being. Although, I did thought of this:

The Quickening (W only)
If the Wizard defeats a spell-casting enemy in melee, he may take one of his spells, even if it is a Chaos spell.

So what do you think?

[stellarnova]

Well I actually played last night, which re-familiarized myself with some of the rules. A lot of my abilities were basically "straight-ports" of SWM abilities (including the original names) which I understood better. So you make some valid points, especially relating to Cunning Attack and Opportunist. I also like some of your re-names as they are a better thematic fit for HQ.

As far as the magic system its pretty straightforward, though I already revised it some. You start out normal casting rules (one of each spell per adventure). Then through the feat Willpower (think Force Sensitive) You gain access to mana which are points you can use to recast spells per sadkitchen's casting costs. Then eventually you will likely take Mana Recovery and Mana Regeneration allowing you to slowly perpetuate spell points, never having more mana available than your MP value. I added/modified the feats a little so that Willpower is now Willpower [X] where X is your MP value (not 1/2) and you can gain Concentration which raises your max mana to 1.5x your MP, which would allow the elf to "re-cast" the more powerful spells like Genie, Heal Body, etc.

I really appreciate your feedback. I will try to edit the OP a little to reflect the costs that I was speaking of. Abilities tend to reange from 1-4 "Skill Points", each character gaining 1 SP per mission survived. This also gives an incentive to play smart, cooperate, and survive.

by the way my first game last night ended in a total party kill and I even fudged things like allowing the Genie to be summoned for 3 Rounds and Felrag to stay asleep as the heroes fled to another part of the dungeon. The Chaos Warriors were just too much for vanilla characters. We had a full party of 4 Hero's.

Movement rule: (adapted from SWM, again) Hero's have a base movement of 6 (5 for the dwarf). They can move up to 12 (10 for the Dwarf) if they take no other actions (including opening doors) like attacking and spellcasting.

[chaoticprime]

After experimenting with such rules myself, I have confirmed that there is really no way to add a system such as this and have it still be the same fun game. It turns into entirely too much work, particularly for Zargon's player (who really gets nothing). The less abstract mechanics for combat tie the game down to being a game about nothing but combat. Super Dungeon Explore and Descent are both basically analog video games. Both of those traded personality for more comprehensive engines and neither one is actually as fun as HeroQuest. Generally speaking, games are made better by adapting ideas to the rules, not finding new uses for the rules and making up an idea to explain it after-the-fact. I'm not shitting on anyone, here, and I love making up game rules and lists of stuff more than most, but I think the last thing HeroQuest could benefit from is additional accountability for all five players.

[stellarnova]

After experimenting with such rules myself, I have confirmed that there is really no way to add a system such as this and have it still be the same fun game. It turns into entirely too much work, particularly for Zargon's player (who really gets nothing). The less abstract mechanics for combat tie the game down to being a game about nothing but combat. Super Dungeon Explore and Descent are both basically analog video games. Both of those traded personality for more comprehensive engines and neither one is actually as fun as HeroQuest. Generally speaking, games are made better by adapting ideas to the rules, not finding new uses for the rules and making up an idea to explain it after-the-fact. I'm not shitting on anyone, here, and I love making up game rules and lists of stuff more than most, but I think the last thing HeroQuest could benefit from is additional accountability for all five players.

I think I get your drift here, and I appreciate the feedback. What I was hoping to accomplish was to make the game have a better replay value than I hope we can survive, again. The analog video game thing may be what I was going for, truthfully. I have in fact had HQ since I was a kid but never really got to play it much. It seems to me darn near impossible to beat if your characters don't get better. But then again there may be something lurking that I haven't discovered, gear not included in the armory or something I haven't played enough to see. I believe the group was sitting on near 200 gold at the end of the adventure before their demise. Hardly and upgrade worthy feat encouraging more perilous dungeon delving.

I imagine that the adventures get tougher as you "progress" (the whole video game thing again). I'm not trying to overpower the hero's, or the villians, just add some customization that feels like your playing "your dwarf", "your elf", etc. A small handwritten character sheet is all you need to keep track of your new abilities, which isn't too much to ask of the crowd I normally play with. Sure we might long for a full fledged RPG but we don't have the time to dedicate to learning a complex system, or a GM willing to endure on such a task. HQ is a resource already available to me to fulfill this niche. But after playing games like Marvel Legendary, Magic the Gathering, Settlers of Catan and Runebound, the bar has been set high and HQ's simple yet effective system does seem a little dated.

On that note I thought of simply upgrading the charcters to different "kits", like a Ninja, Paladin, etc. and printing off the character cards with custom abilities much like they do in Collectible Miniatures or Clix games. Just to give players some sort of "edge". I'm already slaughtering the whole party and I haven't even used one spell against them.

[Malcadon]

I made this on another forum. Although it was designed for customized Hero archetypes, you might find some of this useful:

Trap Mastery - (See Dwarf)
Spells - May cast one spell element, per point spent.
Assassin - Count as having an unlimited supply of Daggers, for the sake of throwing.
Fleet-Footed - Can cross difficult squares, as if they are empty squires.
[monster]-Slayer - re-roll one Attack Dice against a chosen type of Monster.
Wealth - Gain a 100 gold coin stipend after each Quest (or 500, with 2 points).
Hit-and-Run - May move, stop to attack, then continue to move, if any MPs are left.
Sneaky - May enter a room unnoticed by monsters on a 5 or 6 (if alone, the monsters count as inactive, until another Hero 'sees' it)
Foresight - Can detect monsters (and what types) on the other-side of a closed door, on a 5 or 6.
Divine Hand - Once per game (per point), the Hero can recover 1-6 Body Points, on himself, or an adjacent Hero.
Divine Aura (counts as 2 skills) - Undead and Demons cannot be adjacent to the hero, on a 5 er 6.
Fast (counts as 2 skills) - gain an extra action for the turn (up to 2 actions).

It should be noted that I use a houserule related to 3e D&D-styled Cleave (or "Deathblow" in WHQ) called a Sweep Attack. All Heroes are allowed to use this ability. When a Hero defeats a monster with a surplus of hits (rolled more skulls then the monster can block or take), the Hero can attack another adjacent monster with those unused hits. No additional attack roll is necessary, but the monster may defend as usual. The Hero may continue attacking until he runs out of hits, and the monsters do not need to be next to each other — they just have to be next to the Hero.

[chaoticprime]

After experimenting with such rules myself, I have confirmed that there is really no way to add a system such as this and have it still be the same fun game. It turns into entirely too much work, particularly for Zargon's player (who really gets nothing). The less abstract mechanics for combat tie the game down to being a game about nothing but combat. Super Dungeon Explore and Descent are both basically analog video games. Both of those traded personality for more comprehensive engines and neither one is actually as fun as HeroQuest. Generally speaking, games are made better by adapting ideas to the rules, not finding new uses for the rules and making up an idea to explain it after-the-fact. I'm not shitting on anyone, here, and I love making up game rules and lists of stuff more than most, but I think the last thing HeroQuest could benefit from is additional accountability for all five players.

I think I get your drift here, and I appreciate the feedback. What I was hoping to accomplish was to make the game have a better replay value than I hope we can survive, again. The analog video game thing may be what I was going for, truthfully. I have in fact had HQ since I was a kid but never really got to play it much. It seems to me darn near impossible to beat if your characters don't get better. But then again there may be something lurking that I haven't discovered, gear not included in the armory or something I haven't played enough to see. I believe the group was sitting on near 200 gold at the end of the adventure before their demise. Hardly and upgrade worthy feat encouraging more perilous dungeon delving.

I imagine that the adventures get tougher as you "progress" (the whole video game thing again). I'm not trying to overpower the hero's, or the villians, just add some customization that feels like your playing "your dwarf", "your elf", etc. A small handwritten character sheet is all you need to keep track of your new abilities, which isn't too much to ask of the crowd I normally play with. Sure we might long for a full fledged RPG but we don't have the time to dedicate to learning a complex system, or a GM willing to endure on such a task. HQ is a resource already available to me to fulfill this niche. But after playing games like Marvel Legendary, Magic the Gathering, Settlers of Catan and Runebound, the bar has been set high and HQ's simple yet effective system does seem a little dated.

On that note I thought of simply upgrading the charcters to different "kits", like a Ninja, Paladin, etc. and printing off the character cards with custom abilities much like they do in Collectible Miniatures or Clix games. Just to give players some sort of "edge". I'm already slaughtering the whole party and I haven't even used one spell against them.

Each Quest is designed to allow repeated play efforts. Especially Kellar's Keep and beyond. The basic 14 quests are almost too easy, but after that they'll stomp you to death no problem.