Magic, Mind Points and the Talisman of Lore

[Zenithfleet]

G'day folks. I've been thinking about a super-simple advancement system for magic (European ruleset, but some of this might be useful to North American players too). I'd like to do the following:

1. Allow the Elf and Wizard to learn new spell sets (like the ones in Wizards of Morcar, or Ethica's cool sets) without having to play all the way to Wizards of Morcar or the Elf Quest Pack.
2. Make more use of Mind Points.
3. Give the Talisman of Lore an actual point.

Some of the advancement systems I've seen are extremely impressive (e.g. Phoenix's Imperial Academy / Sorcerie), but they're a little too in-depth for me - I like my HQ at 'ages 10+' level With that in mind, here's what I've come up with.

First some musings about magic in HeroQuest:

Spells seem to work in a Jack Vance 'Dying Earth' sort of way. Magicians memorise spells, and once they use one, it vanishes from their memory. This fits the 'discard a spell after use' rule. (Interestingly, this seems to differ from the way it works in the Warhammer Fantasy world--I believe that's based on the strength of the 'winds of magic', but I'm not too familiar with that game.)

Also, in Quests that involve the Heroes being captured and their equipment taken, the Elf and Wizard lose their spells. This suggests that their spellbooks have been stolen and they can't memorise any spell until they find the books again.

Suggestion #1: To learn new spell sets (like the ones in Wizards of Morcar), the players need to find spellbooks. One spellbook lets them choose that spell set instead of an elemental set. The spellbooks could be Quest Treasures (e.g. 'Spellbook: Darkness'). If they ever lose that spellbook (e.g. the Wizard gives it to the Elf), they lose the ability to memorise and use spells from it. Owning a spellbook doesn't increase the number of spell sets you can take, though--just the sets you can choose from. (You keep the same number of 'spell slots', in other words.)

....Now, in the EU questbook, the Mentor parchment text for Melar's Maze says that the Talisman of Lore was designed to increase the holder's understanding of magic. Since the Talisman's game effects are to increase your Mind Points, this suggests that Mind Points are related to magic in some way. (NOTE: In the EU game, the Talisman adds 2 MP.)

I took a look at the four Heroes' Mind Point stats:
Barbarian.......2 MP........No spell sets
Dwarf...........3 MP........No spell sets
Elf.............. 4 MP........One spell set
Wizard......... 6 MP....... Three spell sets

Filling in the gaps gives the following:

Barbarian.......2 MP........No spell sets
Dwarf...........3 MP........No spell sets
Elf.............. 4 MP........One spell set
?????.............5 MP........Two spell sets
Wizard......... 6 MP....... Three spell sets
?????.............7 MP........Four spell sets
?????.............8 MP........Five spell sets
And so on. There's a simple linear progression here.

Suggestion #2: A Hero's Mind Points determine how many spell sets they can take. The more Mind Points they have, the more magic they can use. Therefore, if anything in the game increases a Hero's maximum MP value, they can take more spell sets. (They get bonus 'spell slots').

This would make the Talisman of Lore extremely useful. It really would 'increase the holder's understanding of magic'. If the Elf or Wizard carried it, they could select bonus spell sets. The Elf could take three sets (MP 6), while the Wizard could take five (MP 8). These could be duplicates of existing spell sets--for instance, the Wizard could take two Fire sets, two Earth sets and one Water set--or they could be new spell sets like those from WoM if they've found the spellbooks for those.

But wait! you cry. What if the Barbarian or Dwarf held the Talisman? In that case, the Barbie would go up to MP4 and be able to take one spell set while the Dwarf would attain 5 Mind Points and get his mitts on two spell sets Now, I reckon this could be a fun idea, but other people may disagree. However...

...there's a simple way around this. Spellbooks. As noted above, it seems HeroQuest characters need to own spellbooks to memorise spells. We can assume the Elf and Wizard each own spellbooks for Air, Earth, Fire and Water (because they're stolen in some Quests). The Elf just can't memorise as many as the Wizard because his Mind Points aren't as high.

So even if the Barbarian or Dwarf held the Talisman, they couldn't take spells unless they also had a spellbook. Phew! Just to be on the safe side, you could rule that the Barbarian doesn't know how to read anyway, so wouldn't even know which way up to hold the book, let alone understand it...

On the other hand, this opens up possibilities for special spellbooks. As far as I know, Dwarfs in the Warhammer world don't use regular magic, but know special rune magic instead. Maybe there's room for a Quest Treasure spellbook that only a Dwarf with 5 MP or more can read, allowing him to inscribe weapons and armour with powerful enchanted runes?

Oh, and for EU players who want to use Chaos Spells: maybe the Mind value of monsters (at least the ones with names) determines how many Chaos Spells they get too.

Thoughts?

[Sjeng]

Sounds nice! I think there's a discussion on this board somewhere about new spells and how heroes can learn them, to add some diversity to the game.

[Ethica]

I like your logic with the mind point progressing magic use. The Talisman of Lore is available quite early in the game though, this would need fixing.

I work on the assumption that the way magic works in HQ is that spells are primed by the magic user before the quest through hours of meditation/ritual/craft and then unleashed as required in quest.

I don't like the idea that the wizard might be carrying 3 spell books around with him, that would mean that each book only has 3 spells that could each be spoken during 1 turn which would make them very short and quite memorable, unless by their very nature they are unmemorable? Either way it would be more like a spell pamflet. I like that spell books could exist to provide access to new spell sets though.

With the Barbarian and Dwarf I would simply assume they are not magically inclined. I assume it takes years of training to use magic, so the fact that they are now more mindful wouldn't necessarily give them access to it. But I do like the idea that the dwarf, or even the barbarian might then be able to enchant weapons, this give them a little bit more scope.

My own personal method for advancement of magic is that when a magic using enemy is defeated a nearby wizard is able to absorb their energy ala Highlander and choose to use thier magic set from then on. These advanced sets being slightly more powerful than the standard elemental sets.

[Zenithfleet]

The Talisman of Lore is available quite early in the game though, this would need fixing.

Yeah, this is a definite snag. It's easily fixed by just playing Melar's Maze later in the questbook though. I reckon most of those quests can be done in any order apart from the last three.

Also: Spell pamphlets Very true. They must be awfully short books. When I say 'memorise' the spells, though, I don't mean memorise in the everyday sense, but in the Dying Earth sense (which I think was also used in D&D). You have to do pretty much what you described--meditate and concentrate on them first, to 'force them into your brain'. Once you unleash them, they immediately fade from your mind. You have no clue how to perform them again until you do the intense study routine a second time.

(PS, if you've never read Vance, he has the best spell names ever. The Excellent Prismatic Spray is my favourite.)

Forgot to mention--I'm picturing all this as part of a general Heroic advancement system, in which players can purchase 'training' or 'skills'. The Wizard (and maybe the Elf) would purchase training that can bump their Mind Points up by 1 at a time, further increasing their spell use. Meanwhile, the Barbie and Dwarf would be purchasing combat skills and the like.

My own personal method for advancement of magic is that when a magic using enemy is defeated a nearby wizard is able to absorb their energy ala Highlander and choose to use thier magic set from then on. These advanced sets being slightly more powerful than the standard elemental sets.

That, sir, is a brilliant idea. So if you took down the Storm Master in Wizards of Morcar, you'd inherit his spell set? Love it!

[Thrawn]

I'm really going to have to think hard about this one, but I really like the idea of MP improving magic. (Talisman being useful is a big bonus!) Since I play with the North American rules, the +1 MP from the Talisman makes it so that it isn't very game breaking. I'm also going to be running a custom quest set called WAAAGH! instead of the box set quests for my new group, so the Talisman is given out in quest 7 of 12 instead of quest 5 of 14. That might actually be a good spot to allow the wizard to pick up more spells. Elven Bracers from the Elf Quest pack is the item that all of the sudden becomes extremely powerful.

My upcoming campaign, I'm looking at doing a few things differently for spells, and this might fight nicely with it.
1) The Elf can ONLY pick from elf spells. I'm not giving the option for elemental spells. So, he could pick 3 spells. (+3 more for each additional mind point if I adopted the MP rules. The only thing I dislike here is I wish there was a 9th spell available.)

2) The wizard can choose from all four elements, detection, protection, and darkness. So the wizard would have access to 7 spell sets, and would choose 3 for the quest, then adding an additional set for each mind point. (So at 10 MP, the wizard would be able to cast all 7 sets if they somehow managed it.)

Now my plan hadn't been to use mind points to drive new spells, although I'm reconsidering that heavily now. Instead I was going to do an informal leveling system by blatently stealing (and then converting) some stuff from Pheonix. Basically, I'd look at it as leveling at the end of each quest pack. So if you were playing published quests, you'd "gain a level" at the end of the original boxed set, then another at the end of KK, and RotWL, etc. Basically you finish a plotline or quest set, and you gain a level from it. No tracking of gold for it, or anything like that.

I really liked skill cards Phoenix did, although I took it further and divided skill cards into types (Might, Agility, Adventuring, and Toughness.) With my first draft I was working with, after attaining a level heroes would gain:

Barbarian: +1 card per quest from might or toughness
Dwarf: +1 card per quest from adventuring or toughness
Elf: +1 card per quest from agility or adventuring OR +1 elf spell
Wizard: +1 spell set (3 spells)

Now you will notice that wizards gain the most, but that is to make up for the fact that they don't advance in equipment like the other heroes do. More spells are needed to keep the wizard useful in the long run.

Anyway, I'm going to need to think about whether I like the MP advancement vs the "End of Quest Set" advancement. I guess I need to decide on this sooner than later so I can playtest the direction I take.

[Zenithfleet]

Thrawn, thanks for the thoughtful comments I'm pleased that my ideas have thrown a small spanner into your plans

I like your idea of advancement by completed Quest Packs. I was actually considering a similar idea, because keeping track of the number of Quests completed seems like too much work (again, for me simpler is better!) I was thinking of doing a few special cards that represent awards / medals / certificates. For instance:

Champion of the Realm - awarded for completing 3 Quests (In the EU game - the 2nd edition rewarded you with this title but didn't give you any actual reward for it, while I believe the 1st edition gave you monies)

Defender of the Empire - awarded for completing the basic questbook (NA players can just use the Champion name instead)

Hero of Karak Varn - awarded for completing Kellar's Keep

Nemesis of the Witch Lord - awarded for completing RotWL

Slayer of Ogres - awarded for completing Ogre Horde

Sorcerers' Bane - awarded for completing Wizards of Morcar

...and so on.

I haven't quite figured out what benefits these awards give you, but I reckon they'd allow you to buy Skills from new sets. Each Skill costs gold to represent training. They would work just like Equipment cards, except with a different picture on the back so they're never chosen in a 'shuffle the Equipment cards and draw one' situation. There would be fighting Skills, magic Skills that only the Wizard could take (which could be as simple as +1 Mind Point), etc. I'd probably use something like the Combat Cards, but give them a gold value for purchasing.

Under this system, getting the 'Champion' award lets you buy basic Skills. Completing the whole first questbook lets you buy from 'level 2 skill cards' (whatever they might be). Completing Kellar's Keep lets you buy from 'level 3 skill cards', and so on.

I want players to buy the skills, rather than just be given them, because there's just so much gold that goes to waste in HeroQuest for lack of something to spend it on. It does make sense that Heroes would become more experienced just by fighting through a Quest... but I tend to feel that rewarding a player with Combat Cards or similar for completing a Quest is overkill, because they're usually rewarded with gold anyway, plus they find gold during the Quest.

In a way, gold is HeroQuest's 'experience point' system. You only get it if you survive and complete Quests. So I'd rather simply give them more opportunities to spend that gold.

[Thrawn]

The title with the added opportunity for some kind of advancement makes sense to me.

[Thrawn]

I talked it over with my players I'll be playing with in my next round of HeroQuest. We are going to give the mind points advancing spells a try. I still have to figure out some of the details of how I want to implement advancement, but we are going to go for it.

I'm thinking that I'm going to have advancement "levels" cost something like 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000, etc, and you pick a "skill" each time, with two of the skills equating to +1 MP and 2 of them equating to +1 BP. Using this, the Wizard would be able to get up to 8 MP without items, and I figure eventually, it would be possible to get up to +2 MP via items.

So holes I'd need to fill...with the same assumpionts of +4 MP being the most someone could end up with...
The elf only has 8 spells available in the elf spell set. They could potentially need 15 spells.
Developing sets of "Dwarven Runes" as the dwarven equivalent for magic, would need at least 4 spells sets or 12 spells.
Barbarians going all out for magic would need 9 sets available. (Add some "tribal magic" or druidic type sets for barbarians who wnat to go mage? Animal, Plant, and weather?

I suppose I can just look to WHFB spell colleges for best fits for each.

Anyway, thanks for creating a bunch more work for me! At least I don't need it done before we start, since I'll have 7 quests before rune magic should be possible, and we have enough elf and wizard stuff to cover for a while. I suppose I should watch out for the party pooling money to get the dwarf runes faster, just to spite me, but that would set them back a ton in equipment.

[Daedalus]

@Zenithfleet-
Awesome insight! Very useful, I may have to steal it for my own purposes.

@Thrawn-
When I was considering my own magic advancement system (still underway), I figured the Elf would only get 1 spell for an advance, while the Wizard would get a set of 3. That is because it fits the original 3 to 1 ratio of spells that they start with. The Elf is well compensated with plenty of equipment for his lack of spells.

Like you, I also want to start the Elf out with 3 Elf spells, not an elemental set. So that would leave 5 more upgrades if 1 spell was awarded at a time. One spell would go unchosen, or you could supplement the Wizard's spells with another homebrew set to allow him 5 upgrades, as well. By the way, the Elf spells tend to be more powerful than those available to the Wizard, so he'd gain magically on the Wizard if you award him sets of three.

Using the OP's system, gaining a Mind Point would gain an Elf 1 spell.

If you accept this model of progression, you'd have to limit the Dwarf in a similar manner. Maybe just start him out with 1 Rune magic if he gained a Mind Point, and add 1 MP thereafter for any MP increase.

[Thrawn]

That fits much closer to my original vision of adding magic. However, I suppose I should actually share the latest version I've been working with for house rules, that gives 3 spells per. Don't recall if I posted it in it's own thread or if Phoenix is the only one who has seen runic magic and tribal magic. (I had it attached to the orc quest pack draft when I sent that.)