Equipment Redefined

[AerynB]

I like your ideas, Thrawn. I agree ranged weapons need a larger price increase. And I'd like it if the Elf could wield stronger weapons as well. Do you mind if I make your table easier to read?

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Item       Dice    2-Hand    Range    Thrown    Offhand    Reach    Special    Cost    Notes
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Staff       1        Y         -        -          -         Y                  75     Usable by Wizard
Sling       1        -         Y        -          -         -                 125
Dagger      1        -         -        Y          Y         -                 150     Usable by Wizard
Whip        1        -         -        -          Y         Y                 150
Club        2        -         -        -          -         -                 175
Shortsword  2        -         -        -          Y         -                 225
Hand Axe    2        -         -        -          Y         -                 225
Shortbow    2        Y         Y        -          -         -                 250
Spear       2        -         -        Y          -         Y                 275
Broadsword  3        -         -        -          -         -                 300
Halberd     3        Y         -        -          -         Y                 350     Not usable by Dwarf
Mace        3        -         -        -          Y         -                 350
Flail       3        -         -        -          -         -        +75      375     Opponent -1 defense
Longsword   3        -         -        -          -         Y                 375
Crossbow    3        Y         Y        -          -         -                 425
Battle Axe  4        Y         -        -          -         -                 475
Greatsword  4        Y         -        -          -         Y                 575     Not usable by Dwarf
Longbow     4        Y         Y        -          -         -                 675     Not usable by Dwarf


From the looks of it, the Wizard can't use anything unless it specifically says he can. Also, I'm confused about the two prices for the flail. Is that a copy/paste error? And is "Special" supposed to be a column of its own, or is it supposed to be "Special Cost" like I have it? (Nevermind, I think I figured the Flail out.)

EDIT: Just noticed this, did you mean to take the "thrown" ability away from the Hand Axe?

EDIT 2: I think I know how you came up with your prices. Does this look right?

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       Formulas   Two-Handed   Ranged   Thrown   Dual Wield   Reach
1 die     75 g       -25 g      +50 g    +25 g     +50 g      +25 g
2 dice   175 g       -25 g     +100 g    +50 g     +50 g      +50 g
3 dice   300 g       -25 g     +150 g     -        +50 g      +75 g
4 dice   500 g       -25 g     +200 g     -         -        +100 g


The only one that doesn't seem to work is the Longsword. By these formulas, I think it should be 375 gold instead of 350. But I could be totally wrong. (edit I made a typo error on my own when I typed it into my spreadsheet. You got it right, Thrawn.)

[Thrawn]

I'll check. I actually set up the spreadsheet to automatically do all the calculations automatically, so it should be right. You nailed the forumulas though. I basically took reach, ranged, and thrown and multipled them times attack dice instead of just being a fixed number.

And yes, I added "special" as a column for weapons that have a special ability or limitation added. Not sure 75 is the right adjustment or not for the flail, but I thought 50 seemed too low when I compared to other weapons. (I like the table much more sorted by price than alpha so I can compare similar weapons.)

I do have another column I called "alternates" which is for adding additional weapons with the same stats. For example, I have warhammer in there as an alternate for the broadsword. (This is for miniature purists who will only play WYSIWIG minis.)

[AerynB]

I'll do a quick resort of my remake of your table to get it in cost order. There are a few that seem out of order, like Sling and Dagger should be after Club.

Love to hear what your alternates are. Maybe I should go check out some of your other threads.

What are WYSIWIG minis??

[Thrawn]

WYSIWYG = What You See Is What You Get

If you want someone wielding a longsword, your miniature better have a longsword. If you want a crossbow, it had better be on the mini.

We used to play that way in a lot of games. It encourages a lot of custom miniatures to be made.

So for example, I have a dwarf miniature (from advanced hero's quest I think) with a hammer. There is no equivalent on the chart, so by having alternates, it allows more miniatures to fit.

[AerynB]

Aha. I see what you mean. Hmm... doesn't that limit what kind of equipment you can use when you play? What if you want your Dwarf character to use an axe but it's not on his mini? Do you get a new mini every time you pick up a new weapon or piece of armor? Just curious.

[Thrawn]

Just to add some additional insight into my though process:

1) I like tradeoffs. I hate gold being the only balancer of what's best. I assume everyone will have the "best" weapon fairly quickly anyway. So for example, right now I hate the greatsword. It's better than the great axe, with no drawbacks other than cost. I do like the fact that if you want 4 attack dice, it can only be done with a two handed weapon. The flail is another item I'm questioning right now, although it at least has tradeoffs with the longsword and crossbow. Longbow also is an issue for me. No downside to that weapon other than price.

2) I like to leave lots of niches for artifacts to fill. Too many armory options can make artifacts useless.

3) In tandem with the advancement system in another thread, I'm wondering if some weapons that are "better" should require a skill to use.

[Thrawn]

Aha. I see what you mean. Hmm... doesn't that limit what kind of equipment you can use when you play? What if you want your Dwarf character to use an axe but it's not on his mini? Do you get a new mini every time you pick up a new weapon or piece of armor? Just curious.

When you play WYSIWYG, that's exactly what you do.

[Daedalus]

Modifying minis also gets the job done. For example, Brunor has a nice Barbarian with a battle axe in the Gallery. Some people actually are motivated to do this kind of thing.

[Thrawn]

The Dark Reaper figure finder is awesome for finding miniatures to build your characters around. (You can search for gender, race, weapon, and armor and get a list of miniatures that fit.)

Conversions are still a big part of playing WYSIWYG though.

[Daedalus]

Just to add some additional insight into my though process:

1) I like tradeoffs. I hate gold being the only balancer of what's best. I assume everyone will have the "best" weapon fairly quickly anyway. So for example, right now I hate the greatsword. It's better than the great axe, with no drawbacks other than cost. I do like the fact that if you want 4 attack dice, it can only be done with a two handed weapon. The flail is another item I'm questioning right now, although it at least has tradeoffs with the longsword and crossbow. Longbow also is an issue for me. No downside to that weapon other than price.

This is a good point. I think expense would work better as a balancer if the money system were reworked, but that is a big restructure. What I mean is, if spending gold coins was a fairly even choice between a weapon upgrade and some other benefit such as a skill/ability, then the tradeoff would be not attaining the other ability first. This might be achieved if skills/abilities were costed at a comparable level to weapons and Quest rewards were slashed. That's a fairly complex set of adjustments, so it's easy to see why tradeoffs within a weapon build would be desirable as a default solution.

I think AHQ offers a possible answer for the greatsword. Make it dependent on the wielder's strength, which is another way of saying a Hero needs a minimum number of starting Body Points to use it. I'd set the number at 9. Your skill system would work well with this, as a Dwarf or Barbarian could buy a BP upgrade or two and achieve this (or is a Dwarf already prohibited from using it?). If the strength requirement isn't met, the weapon functions below its full Attack Dice, which makes it a battle axe with reach if it starts with 5 AD. If it instead starts with a more sober 4 AD, then it is bumped down to the same power as a longsword. Of course, even without the skill system, certain artifacts also provide the needed strength/BP boost. Unfortunately for Warhammer sensibilities, an Elf is still left a little short. Maybe a +1 BP increase could be made available as a general skill, and a second +1 BP could only be gotten by the Dwarf and Barbarian using the Toughness skill. Now an Elf can eventually swing a Greatsword (with Elven Bracers)--they have nothing but time, anyway.

I think the huge benefit of attacking from a distance with the longbow (and crossbow) needs a drawback, as well. My preference is assigning a cost to expendable ammunition, which will remain a drawback (though this lessens over time). Assigning a -1 AD penalty for moving and shooting in the same turn is another option. A more sever restriction is to prohibit movement and firing in the same turn (this is more Hero Questy to me). These ideas aren't really new, but they are there to choose from.

3) In tandem with the advancement system in another thread, I'm wondering if some weapons that are "better" should require a skill to use.

Yes--like the BP skill mentioned in point #1. Another could be allowing a Hero to use an overly large weapon otherwise prohibited if the strength requirement is met. A Dwarf could spend the coin to use a Greatsword, and monstrous spiked-clubs, maces, or battle axes could also be added (I've seen some cool Barbarian minis with huge battle axes). I'd say a longbow skill would be justified here, as well. But you probably are already thinking about that.