Magic, Mind Points and the Talisman of Lore

[Sjeng]

By the way, the Elf spells tend to be more powerful than those available to the Wizard.

Which spells are those?

[cynthialee]

By the way, the Elf spells tend to be more powerful than those available to the Wizard.

Which spells are those?

I would have to say that Slow, Time Stop, and Flashback are extremely powerful.

[Daedalus]

@Sjeng-

Okay, these are just my judgements. I wouldn't be surprised if some are off, as I have never played with any of the Elf spells (or the Wizards of Morcar spells, for that matter). That being said, here is how I break things up (apologies to anyone using my previous spell-costs):

The published spells can be split into 4 levels of effectiveness. The lowest-powered spells don't affect combat, so this first rank is assigned a cost of 1. These include Clairvoyance (Detection), Pass Through Rock (Earth), Swift Wind (Air), Veil of Mist (Water), and Wall of Stone (Protection).

The second rank of cost 2 spells generally affect combat with close to 1 die of real value (ex. the 2 skulls of Courage average one hit, so cost 1), or have a stronger benefit than rank 1 spells. They include Chains of Darkness (Darkness), Courage, the 1 attack version (Fire), Disappear (Elf), Flame of Wrath (Fire), Invisiblility (Protection), Sleep (Water), Stone Skin (Earth), Tempest (Air), and Treasure Horde (Detection).

The third rank of cost 3 spells generally affect combat with close to 2 dice of real value, can affect combat more than once, or are worth more than a cost 1 spell (ex. Ball of Flame only averages 1 1/3 BPs of damage, but it is twice the value of Flame of Wrath, so bump it up to cost 2). They include Arrows of the Night (Darkness), Ball of Flame (Fire), Cloak of Shadows (Darkness), Deep Sleep (Elf), Dispel Magic (Protection), Future Sight (Detection), Genie (Air), Slow (Elf), Time Stop (Elf), and Twist Wood (Elf).

Some explanations: Deep Sleep is auto-Sleep that works on undead as well. Twist Wood cripples powerful Chaos Warriors, Ogres, or Elven Archers, as thier weapons contain wooden hafts (not to mention other weapon-wielding monsters). Timestop shines when judiciously used with power-ups such at potions or Artifacts. As Slow can last many turns and a Crossbow can be employed against the target without retaliation, perhaps it should be bumped up to cost 4 (cynthialee's appraisal supports this)

The fourth rank of cost 4 spells have effects that potentially extend beyond a turn and affect the game more dramatically. These include Double Image (Elf), Flashback (Elf), Heal Body (Earth), Hypnotic Blaze (Elf), and Water of Life (Water).

To recap, my spell costs for the Elf spells work as follows:

cost 1 ... none
cost 2 ... Disappear
cost 3 ... Deep Sleep, Slow, Time Stop, Twist Wood
cost 4 ... Double Image, Flashback, Hypnotic Blaze (and maybe Slow)

The average costs of spells within thier groups:

Air ... 2 / Earth ... 2.3 / Fire ... 2.3 or 3* / Water ... 2.3
Darkness ... 2.3 / Detection ... 2 / Protection ... 2
Elf ... 3.25 or 3.4**
* if Courage has an indefinite duration
** if Slow is cost 4

Based on my educated guesses, the Elf spells really stand out as more powerful, with only the Fire spells coming close if the more powerful interpretation of Courage is used.

Finally, another huge benefit of the Elf spells is their number, as the three most powerful may be cherry-picked from a group of eight. I'd suggest curbing this by requiring a random draw for any Elf spell, or restricting an Elf spell rank until all lower-rank Elf spells are chosen.

[Thrawn]

Here was my proposed magic rules for my group, which I built into the rules for WAAAGH! as an optional rule.

Mind Points for Spells (optional) – One difficulty with HeroQuest is the wizard not advancing like other character types due to equipment limitations. This optional rule should help with some of that balance as well as adding some new flexibility for spell advancement on other heroes. Spellcasting ability is determined by mind points of the hero. Taking mind points -3 you can determine how many spell categories (groups of free spells) the character may choose at the beginning of the quest. (See the following chart.)

Mind Points Spell Classes Starting Hero
4 1 (3 spells) Elf
5 2 (6 spells)
6 3 (9 spells) Wizard
7 4 (12 spells)
8 5 (15 spells)
9 6 (18 spells)
10 7 (21 spells)

Using this chart, the elf selects 3 spells and the wizard selects 9 just like the standard spell rules. However, should one of these characters manage to increase their Mind Points (for example by carrying the Talsiman of Lore) they would be entitled to an additional set of spells Please also note that if the dwarf character were to increase his mind points, he would choose spells from the “Dwarven Rune’s” spell deck included with this quest pack. The barbarian would require an increase by two mind points, which is not possible during the course of this series of quests.)

Under this system, it is recommended that certain types of spells require certain numbers of mind points to use, in addition to restrictions by character type. (This limits the starting elf and wizard to elemental spells only, opening up more options later as they advance.)

Spell Type Minimum MP Hero Restriction
Air 4 Elf or Wizard Only
Earth 4 Elf or Wizard Only
Fire 4 Elf or Wizard Only
Water 4 Elf or Wizard Only
Dwarven Runes** 4 Dwarf Only
Tribal Magic** 4 Barbarian Only
Elf Spells* 5 Elf Only
Master Runes** 5 Dwarf Only
Darkness*** 7 Elf or Wizard Only
Detection*** 7 Elf or Wizard Only
Protection*** 7 Elf or Wizard Only
*Included in the Elf Quest Pack
** Included in this Quest Set
***Included in the Wizards of Morcar quest pack

[Thrawn]

The key element I wanted to point out for elf spells in my optional rule set was that the elf would not be eligable to take elf spells until they managed to get +1 mind point somehow. The same would be true for the wizard wanting to take any wizards of morcar spells. They all require +1 mind point. So starting wizards and elves are limited to the base set of element spells.

[el_flesh]

Sorry for asking something that might have already been: Do you allow for some other talisman/artifact or whatever to add the +1 mind? Or is it just Lore?

Also, what's a maladroid's Talisman doing in HQ???

[Thrawn]

Sorry for asking something that might have already been: Do you allow for some other talisman/artifact or whatever to add the +1 mind? Or is it just Lore?

Also, what's a maladroid's Talisman doing in HQ???

Here is the possible additional mind points.

+1 MP for Talisman of Lore (usable by any hero.)
Elf Pack has +1 MP item for elf only.
Barbarian pack has +1 MP item for Barbarian only.
I would eventually add equivalent items for both the wizard and the dwarf. (I kind of think RotWL and KK should have included those items.)

I also use a skill system where heroes can buy "skills" after each quest pack. 2 of the skills available to the elf and wizard (but not dwarf and barbarian) give the option for +1 MP.

So the dwarf and barbarian can get +2 mind points overall.
The elf and wizard can get +4 mind points overall.

The only balance change I'm considering is only giving +1 spell per MP for nonwizards, so that there is more incentive to give spells to wizard first.

[el_flesh]

But what about the bad joke? "Lore"?

Does anyone get it???

[Sjeng]

I sadly got it... j/k I love Star Trek.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Edited by HispaZargon: Thread merged with thread "Simple advancement mechanism for Wizard" since both threads treat the same topic. All posts from the second thread have been moved to this thread.

This topic is about a simple and more focussed version of idea mentioned in a number of places on these forums, including The Wizard Clearing House of House Rules (but that thread is just too big!)

Specifically intended to discuss the following issue: #31: Wizard has very limited options under the standard Advancement mechanism

Problem statement:
The Wizard is pretty much excluded from the standard advancement mechanism, due to their inability to use anything but basic weapons and no real armour. The Wizard has almost nothing to spend his gold on, so is effectively excluded from the advancement mechanism.

In addition, some Quests particularly those from the later Quest Books are considerably longer than the earlier Quests so the Wizard risks running out of spells early on.

Proposed changes:
For Heroes in general HQ has an in-built advancement mechanism which is, at a high level, kill all monsters in a room, search the room, find treasure in the form of gold, between Quests spend the gold on improved equipment which boost your stats – more details here Advancement - how to do it?

However for the Wizard there are only 3 steps under SE – Staff, Bracers, Cloak of Protection so he soon runs out of options and just becomes a walking bank for the rest of the party.

Under the Rejigging the Equipment Cards (SE) topic I have proposed some changes to benefit the Wizard's Advancement through Equipment in terms of more equipment: Wizard's Staff (ported from NA), Short sword

And I have also started to deliver on the promise below by introducing: Wand of Fire, Crown of Sorcery, Ring of Recall, Totem of Protection

Wizard: Since there are so few things that you can buy from the Armoury, it would be wise for you to save your money. Other powerful magic items will be offered for sale in future adventures (in the Quest Packs). You may wish to spend your money on those items.

But focussing on the second aspect of the problem, on this topic, insufficient spells in the longer later Quests, consider the following points

1) The Wizard is the "weakest of the group in terms of starting Body points
2) Wizards of Morcar introduces 3 new sets of 3 spells in the form of Spells of Protection, Detection and Darkness and which are intended to be substituted for any of the original spell sets (but still restricts him to 3 sets)

#From Wizards of Morcar
There are also three new sets of spells for the Wizard and Elf: Spells of Protection, Spells of Detection and Spells of Darkness. These may be added to the existing sets of spells which the Elf and Wizard draw on, but they may still only choose one and three sets of spells respectively. They may still change their spells between Quests.

3) All starting heroes in the original game keep to the unstated principle of Body Points + Mind Points = 10
4) Quest Treasures exist such as the Talisman of Lore (and the new Crown of Sorcery) that provide a permanent (for as long as the Wizard has it) boost to starting Mind Points.
5) Under standard HeroQuest rules it appears that the Wizard (and the Elf) both "know" all 12 elemental spells at the start but are limited in how many of those spells they can "pre-load" for a given quest
6) That "pre-load" limit is derived from their MP value. As has been speculated elsewhere there seems to be an unstated principle of one set (of three) spells per starting Mind Point above 3, that is, 4MP = 1 set of 3 spells, 5MP = 2 sets of 3 spells, 6MP = 3 sets of 3 spells and so on.

If you put all those together then the starting Wizard "knows" all 4 sets of 3 elemental spells but is limited in the number he can "pre-load" for each Quest by his 6MP (3 sets of 3 spells). Once his starting Mind Point total is increased by Quest Treasures such as the Talisman of Lore, this "pre-load" limit could be increased, allowing him to carry an additional set of 3 spells into a Quest for each extra Mind Point which would help with issue around the limited number of spells in some of the later Quests

If you change the starting Wizard to 5BP+5MP then he still has the lowest BP value which is consistent, he would start with 2 sets of 3 spells, once he gets the Talisman of Lore this would increase to 6MP and 3 spell sets

If you then introduce three new artefacts for 1000 gold coins each (satisfying the "more powerful magic items for the Wizard to purchase") each of which allows the wielder of the artefact to "know" and therefore be able to include those in their pre-quest spell selection, one of the 3 new spell sets from WOM

Finally introducing he "Crown of Sorcery" into a later Quest, perhaps worn by The Witch Lord in Quest 10 of ROTWL "Court of the Witch Lord" giving another +1MP and the ability to pre-load a total of 4 sets of 3 spells, from the available sets, the original four and up to 3 of the new WOM sets, based on how many of the three artefacts he has purchased

Talisman of Protection
Spell caster only
This talisman allows the holder access to the Spells of Protection set
Cost 1000 gold coins

Orb of Detection
Spell caster only
This talisman allows the holder access to the Spells of Detection set
Cost 1000 gold coins

Shard of Darkness
Spell caster only
This talisman allows the holder access to the Spells of Darkness set
Cost 1000 gold coins

This last piece wasn't my own idea but was suggested by someone else and when I remember who I will credit them...