Lowery_79 wrote:Ok back at home.
Here is something I posted before about mounted combat and I would like your guys thoughts on it. I know a few of the things that were brought up in that post have already been talked bout buy you guys and I feel we're on the same page. For example giving some mounted units two attacks.
http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=4882In our discussion above we have also talked about quests that take place outside. Here are some of the things I had been throwing around on this idea. There are a few scenarios that make up these ideas.
Turn the pages seven years with necromancy. This response is probably far too late for your play experience with a table, but maybe it can be helpful to someone some day, or at least provide discussion fodder for those interested in stretching the bounds of our game. . . .
Lowery_79 wrote:For the quest I wanted to make, I was thinking of using a big green mat with squares for the heroes to use to move like the main board uses. This one was quickly made using scraps of old green board drywall that I had. It is 69 spaces or squares long x 52 spaces or squares wide. I have placed a few items on the mat that will be explained as I go through this post. For starters I put the Overground starting tile from Against the Ogre Horde at the bottom left corner of the mat where all heroes will start. The Barbarian, Wizard and the Dwarf are place here for now. The Elf is further out on the battle field, maybe in this quest he had a head start over the other heroes. I would say from this point all 4 heroes should be able to see the castle ( Heroquest board) at the top right of the mat. The balcony connected to the castle is a downloaded tile from Ron Shirtz' at this site http://english.yeoldeinn.com/tiles-shirtz-terrain.php All the heroes for a standard move roll 2 red 6 sided dice, that means that the maximum number any of them can roll at anytime is 12 space at a time.
My take on how to handle HQ play on an open board/table relies on a few premises.
0. Distance is normally not a factor on the Hero Quest board. A Hero can see its entire length. This principle should be extended to the larger tabletop, in my opinion.
1. To begin, there are two kinds of "see." One relates to exploration, which governs placement of room/corridor contents. I feel it's useful to treat an open board as a corridor in this case: when the board is revealed at the start of play, place all monsters and other contents (ie. the AtOH outdoor tile, the castle board and the balcony tile) which are in the Heroes' line of sight (LoS). When determining a monsters, LoS, consider each monster as the first monster placed on the board. If a Hero has LoS to the monster, it isn't later blocked by other monster placements. This agrees with the Avalon Hill statement on the matter. In scenarios below, that means that all rearward figures are immediately visible to the Heroes. This comes with the important consequence that on Zargon's first turn, he may activate every monster on the table.
2. The other kind of "see" involves missile combat and spellcasting. (Page 15 of the Instruction Booklet advises how to handle this kind of "see" with LoS.) All monsters are already placed, so figures before rearward ones may now block LoS. There are a couple of extra issues to think about in this tabletop Quest, however. First, the new, very long distances between the Heroes and monsters mean "drawing an invisible line" is impractical. You could use a long length of string, but instead I'd suggest the method used in Heroscape, another Stephen Baker game: a player gets down to the eye level of his Hero figure and actually looks toward his target to determine LoS.
3. LoS should still be sighted to the center of the target figure's square, but in the case of the dragon, size can also matter. Where a large figure like the dragon is concerned, I'd suggest extending the rule of thumb from the Instruction Booklet to account for a figure's height, sighting the vertical center as well. Even if LoS is blocked to the center of the dragon's square, it still may be possible to "see" the dragon if more than half of it's figure extends above any intervening figures, as viewed from the Hero figure's perspective. For a bit more granularity, line of effect can be accounted for by sighting an invisible line from the Hero's shoulder height to the center of the target figure, as spells aren't cast and missiles aren't fired from a Hero's eyes.
4. Lastly, since you've included a castle gameboard and balcony tile, elevation comes into play even though it isn't represented with actual terrain heights. I've found looking at the squares of Hero Quest and pit trap tiles that different elevations need to be treated as separate rooms with blocking walls until the target is close to the edge. The simplest rule is that a figure adjacent to edge of an elevation is visible, but figures farther back are not. Adding a bit more granularity, figures below the shoulder height of the Wizard can be targeted by LoS at a square adjacent to the edge of an elevation, figures approximately the same height as the Wizard can be targeted by LoS up to one square away from the edge, figures with a shoulder height above the Wizard's height can be targeted up to two squares away from the edge, and figures with a waist height above the Wizard's height can be targeted up to 3 squares away from the edge. If you want better accuracy than this, place the gameboard on some books and pull out the string.
With the preceding premises established, here's how I'd apply them on a clear day:
Lowery_79 wrote:Scenario One
From the starting tile how far away can the 3 heroes there see? Straight ahead 40 spaces there are 3 knights on horse back, 11 spaces beyond them is a red dragon.
All figures have been placed on the tabletop according to premise #1 discussed above and are thus visible to the three Heroes.
The three Heroes can see the three knights according to premise #2 and have LoS for missile attacks and casting spells. It's difficult to tell from the picture without being able to view from the height of the Hero figures, but the Heroes might also have clear LoS to most of the dragon as well according to premise #3, making it an eligible target. It would be easier to establish if the knights weren't mounted on horseback.
Lowery_79 wrote:Clockwise to the right is the castle 40 spaces away. Between the 3 heroes at the starting tile and the castle, the Elf hero sits 14 spaces away from them. Can the 3 heroes at the starting tile see him? 11 spaces after the Elf there is a wolf rider leader leading an attack on the Elf, followed by another wolf rider 5 spaces behind his leader. Do the 3 heroes at the starting tile see the wolf riders? Moving again to the right 33 spaces away from the 3 heroes at the starting tile is a gargoyle beast taking flight from the balcony of the castle. Remember the balcony is also up in the air. Below the balcony is 2 ogres, remember they are 42 spaces away from the 3 heroes at the starting tile. Do the three heroes see the gargoyle beast and the ogres?
As before, all figures on the tabletop can be considered visible to the three Heroes according to premise #1.
For purposes of spellcasting, the Wizard has an unblocked LoS to the Elf and thus can "see" him (premise #2). The three Heroes also all have an unblocked LoS to both wolfriders and so can fire missiles or cast spells at them (premise # 2). The three Heroes also have LoS to the Gargoyle at the edge of the balcony according to premise # 4, even though LoS would be blocked by the Elf it weren't elevated.
Lowery_79 wrote:
Lastly there are 2 orc boar boyz opposite the 3 heroes at the starting tile. The orc boar boyz are 37 spaces away at the right bottom corner of the mat. 1 of the orc boar boyz is mounted on his boar, the other ones boar has been killed. Do the 3 heroes at the starting tile see the orc boar boyz?
This is a tough call as the overhead picture is unclear. It appears that one Orc boar boy is still mounted in back, with another two orc boar boys on foot in front. I'd say the killed boar should have no effect on LoS and the figure should be removed. For purposes of missile attacks and spellcasting from the three Heroes: the Wizard has LoS for spellcasting to the front-most orc boar boy and the mounted orc boy. The Dwarf has LoS to the same orc boar boyz and could shoot at them. The Barbarian appears to have LoS blocked by the Wizard and so can't shoot at them.
Lowery_79 wrote:Scenario Two
From the Elves point of view I think he should see the castle to his right like the other three heroes. I also think he should be able to see the 2 wolf riders, they are only 12 spaces away from him. They would be the first that could attack the Elf.
Agreed for the most part, but I'd say that the wolf rider closer to the Elf blocks LoS to the farther one for purposes of spellcasting and shooting.
Lowery_79 wrote:Now from the Elves view point to the top left of the mat can he see the 3 knights on horse back 27 spaces away from him? Should he be able to see the red dragon 11 spaces behind the 3 knights on horse back?
Yes, the Elf can see all three mounted knights and the dragon as clear LoS can be "drawn" to each figure.
Lowery_79 wrote:
Shifting back to the right can the Elf see the gargoyle beast on the balcony 21 spaces away, plus remember the balcony is also up in the air. Should the Elf be able to see the 2 ogres on the ground beneath the balcony? They are 27 spaces away from the Elf.
The Elf should be able to "see" and thus shoot or cast a spell at any of these three monsters as LoS is unobstructed (see premise 3 for the Gargoyle).
Lowery_79 wrote:Not for getting about the 2 orc boar boyz to the Elves right, 23 spaces away would he be able to see them?
Clear LoS exists for both unmounted orc boar boyz. The mounted orc boar boy probably is blocked by the orc in front of him, though this isn't certain from the pictures.
Lowery_79 wrote:Or does it seem like I'm over thinking this whole idea in which this third Scenario might be best.
This Scenario is based off the “personal halo” idea found at this site:
https://evilwizardcharacter.wordpress.com/Basically the term “Personal Halo” means the heroes can only see 8 spaces surrounding him in each direction. This idea comes into play when the heroes find themselves in dark caves where a torch or lantern have to me used to see. But applied to the ideas I have been talking about in this email it would be changed as thus.
Due to the maximum number any Hero can roll at anytime is 12 spaces. Then this would become their
line of sight (or “Personal Halo”) on a large field map like I am purposing. This new line of sight would work like this:
From the Elves perspective he can only see 12 spaces surrounding him in each direction. So being that the first wolf rider is 12 spaces away from him. The elf could see him but not the second one behind the leading wolf rider. But because the second wolf rider can see that his leader spots something he can act like he sees something to help hi leader attack it. This would work the same for a hero party if they are in a group like the 3 heroes at the starting tile. unfortunately the Elf is to far away from his party so no one can see him or know what he is up against. Because of the size a castle is all heroes on the mat can see the castle and the balcony but maybe they can't see the (Open file named whole mat) entrance to the castle or any monster on or around is until they get close enough to it where there “Personal Halo” falls on it. This means because it's out of the Elves sight he could not see the knights on horse back, the red dragon, gargoyle beast, ogres or orc boar boyz and none of them should be placed on the mat until they enter one of the heroes
“Personal Halo”. Being that 4 heroes are being played in this Scenario they would all 4 be placed on the mat but that does not mean that the elf could see his companions or that they could he them or see what each other sees.
Sorry this post became so long but if you guys can clear up some of these thoughts or questions that would be great.
A personal halo of 12 square spaces is a good idea, but personally I'd restrict it to Quests with special notes for fog or night conditions.
