Help Stat Daemons

[monnock777]

What are your thoughts of the stats of these Daemons?

What could I do to improve them?

What changes would you make?


Bloodthirster
Move 6
Attack 5(3)
Defend 5
Body 10
Mind 4

Ability
Full Attack: Bloodthirster may attack once with his sword (5) and then with the whip (3) each turn. Whip can attack 2 squares away and diagonal.
Fire Breath (2): Enveloping a hero in a ball of fire. It will inflict 2 Body Points of damage. The hero then rolls two red dice. For each 5 or 6 rolled the damage is reduced by 1 point.

Lord of Change
Move *
Attack 4
Defend 5
Body 8
Mind 7

Ability
Flight: May move to any square you see.
Spells: Will always have all High Mage spells and 3 random Chaos spells
Counter Spell: Roll 1 combat dice per mind point if a black shield is roll you may counter any spell cast this turn within your line of sight.


Keeper of Secrets
Move 10
Attack 5
Defend 6
Body 6
Mind 4

Ability
Move action move: Keeper my do part of their movement than an action (such as attack) and then finish moving.
Spells: Will always have Dominate and Command chaos spells as well as 2 random Chaos spells
Encourage: All allies you can see gain 1 white combat dice attack and defense dice


Great Unclean One
Move 4
Attack 6
Defend 4
Body 8
Mind 4

Ability
Infestation: If any hero is or becomes adjacent or diagonal to the Great Unclean One, gets a sickness token and loses 1 BP. Each sickness token count against their next heal.
Spell: Will always have Cloud of Chaos

[cornixt]

Greater daemons are just too powerful, and unless you are using the 3rd-4th edition Warhammer models I don't know how you are fitting them into a room. If we go by 4th edition Warhammer stats (because they are the ones I remember), the HQ heroes are at most around Hero level characters once they have a few quests under their belt, which puts greater daemons as being 10-20 times stronger if you use the points values. Your stats put them at a bit above equal footing.

I'll assume that we're dealing with lesser daemons of the same gods. GUO needs a much higher defense, they are renowned for toughness. KoS is too high in attack and defense, at least compared to the Bloodthirster. The abilities all round seem quite fitting.

[Kurgan]

In Space Crusade one of the expansions was "Mission Dreadnought" that had the space marines (hero players) fighting multiple Dreadnoughts (a "big boss" type alien, war machine taking up 4 squares), much more frequently. They scaled the strength of the players in response by giving them two extra men per squad (from 5 to 7) and giving one of them a "super heavy weapon" (basically a portable cannon/turret). So maybe giving the Heroes some kind of catapult/ballista (or the cannon crew from BattleMasters!) they can wheel around to launch holy flame at the enemy or something might make it more balanced. Each of the three marine squads got their own "super heavy" so maybe multiple cannon crews (equivalent to hiring 8 mercenaries) ?

There's already precedent for custom sized rooms in HQ (with or without special tiles), but you could always create an outdoor area if you didn't like the Avalon Hill solution of having a 2x2 tile monster that nevertheless squeezes through single square sized doors/corridors without penalty.

Then again who is to say these guys have to be super villain level creatures? Maybe instead of fighting Godzilla, they're just fighting another Witch Lord or Frozen Horror in another form...

[monnock777]

Greater daemons are just too powerful, and unless you are using the 3rd-4th edition Warhammer models I don't know how you are fitting them into a room. If we go by 4th edition Warhammer stats (because they are the ones I remember), the HQ heroes are at most around Hero level characters once they have a few quests under their belt, which puts greater daemons as being 10-20 times stronger if you use the points values. Your stats put them at a bit above equal footing.

I'll assume that we're dealing with lesser daemons of the same gods. GUO needs a much higher defense, they are renowned for toughness. KoS is too high in attack and defense, at least compared to the Bloodthirster. The abilities all round seem quite fitting.

As for figures, using Gargoyle for the bloodthirster, Vrock from dnd for lord of change, Xorn form dnd for Great unclean One, and found a four-arm witch on 3Dminis for Keeper of Secrets.

Most of these would be end of a campaign Boss monster and I am okay with not everyone making it out. If all four heroes survive that's great but that doesn't always have to be the case for the last mission.

[monnock777]

Then again who is to say these guys have to be super villain level creatures? Maybe instead of fighting Godzilla, they're just fighting another Witch Lord or Frozen Horror in another form...

I am currently working on custom tiles, that overlay on the board. For example: one of the tiles will cover all room clusters in one of the four corns all the way to the center room depending on how you turn it. It's to be an outside area. As well as a tile that remove the center room all together, to make a like a town square.

[monnock777]

Edited Stats

A boss depends on how difficult the quest has been up until that point...
But an average boss in my homebrew quests would be something like:

4 or 5 Attack
6 Defense
4 MP
10-12 BP
6 Movement

what are your average boss stats?
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4011#p81800

Bloodthirster
Move 6
Attack 5(3)
Defend 5
Body 10
Mind 4

Ability
Full Attack: Bloodthirster may attack once with his sword (5) and then with the whip (3) each turn. Whip can attack 2 squares away and diagonal.
Fire Breath (2): Enveloping a hero in a ball of fire. It will inflict 2 Body Points of damage. The hero then rolls two red dice. For each 5 or 6 rolled the damage is reduced by 1 point.

Lord of Change
Move *
Attack 4
Defend 5
Body 8
Mind 7

Ability
Flight: May move to any square you see.
Spells: Will always have all High Mage spells and 3 random Chaos spells
Counter Spell: Roll 1 combat dice per mind point if a black shield is roll you may counter any spell cast this turn within your line of sight.


Keeper of Secrets
Move 10
Attack 5
Defend 4
Body 7
Mind 4

Ability
Move action move: Keeper my do part of their movement than an action (such as attack) and then finish moving.
Spells: Will always have Dominate and Command chaos spells as well as 2 random Chaos spells
Encourage: All allies you can see gain 1 white combat dice attack and defense dice


Great Unclean One
Move 4
Attack 5
Defend 6
Body 8
Mind 4

Ability
Infestation: If any hero is or becomes adjacent or diagonal to the Great Unclean One, gets a sickness token and loses 1 BP. Each sickness token count against their next heal.
Spell: Will always have Cloud of Chaos

[Kurgan]

I'd also mention that the Space Crusade bosses had either 3 or 5 weapons. Each time they took damage, one of the weapons would drop off (and they lost the last one when they were destroyed). So while they were very powerful (being able to do multiple attacks per turn, once with each weapon... we're talking rocket bombs, flames, machineguns, etc) as they were hit they weakened and could be overcome. But forget trying to melee with them, that was suicidal!

So I could see a magical kind of form of such a creature appearing on the HeroQuest board, with appropriate counter-measures to give the heroes a fighting chance. Maybe the Wizard could summon an Elemental or friendly dragon of some kind of disrupt them?

[monnock777]

They scaled the strength of the players in response by giving them two extra men per squad (from 5 to 7) and giving one of them a "super heavy weapon" (basically a portable cannon/turret). So maybe giving the Heroes some kind of catapult/ballista (or the cannon crew from BattleMasters!)

Having the player drag a cannon in seems a bit much, mercenaries are already too much sometimes.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

I'd also mention that the Space Crusade bosses had either 3 or 5 weapons. Each time they took damage, one of the weapons would drop off (and they lost the last one when they were destroyed). So while they were very powerful (being able to do multiple attacks per turn, once with each weapon... we're talking rocket bombs, flames, machineguns, etc) as they were hit they weakened and could be overcome. But forget trying to melee with them, that was suicidal!

So I could see a magical kind of form of such a creature appearing on the HeroQuest board, with appropriate counter-measures to give the heroes a fighting chance. Maybe the Wizard could summon an Elemental or friendly dragon of some kind of disrupt them?

I found that melee combat was the best way of killing Dreadnoughts by using the squad commander, if he was armed with the power fist and sword, and you also used the Melta bomb as well.
Melee combat ignored armour value in SC, so you just had to roll higher than the foe to cause hits, and since the Dreadnought and Commander rolled the same (2red 2white if I remember) the Melta bomb always tipped the balance for me. When we played, the Dreadnought was lethal to all of the standard marines, usually wiping most of them first attack, as the marines only had 1 BP each. Don't remember many games where any marines, except the commanders, survived.
And don't get me started on them bloody Genestealers!

[cornixt]

Magic weapons have always been better at carving up daemons than regular, due to daemons being made of magic. Give the group something special or three, reduce defense by a number of dice for attacks made by them.