Assassin (Dual Wielding Ability)

[Jazzdrummer]

my rogue has 3 skills, sneak, backstab (which requires one be in sneak mode) and then a vanish skill which can be done when monsters are aware of him, but you can't attack out of it like backstab. it is purely a "oh crap" save yourself skill that can be used only a small amount of times in a quest.

they also have the passive ability to draw 2 treasure cards instead of 1, then choose 1 and discard the other.

the stats are 6 body, 4 mind, 2 defense. weapons are dual wield daggers. we tried 5 and 5 but the group felt it was a point low and lead to the rogue being too cautious despite only being one point less). they start with basic daggers but I have artifact daggers that are a little higher in stats or have special attributes like poison or some that allow combos if you successfully roll a skull. (I think its the same as the hellfire dagger someone else made on this site, which if you roll a skull you can roll again as another attack, repeatedly till you don't roll 1).

I have a character card and skill cards I can put on here in a few days when I get home to my main computer if you are interested. (for the record, my rogue is a female so the character card has a female on it)

Yea I'm definitely interested. I've been trying to come up with a balanced yet thematic rogue type of character for a long time. Now are you guys more or less just playing the vanilla game or have you added a lot of modifications? Also are daggers all your rogue can use? Any armor restrictions? Anyways, yea upload her when you can and I'll use her in my next game. In the mean time does she essentially look like this:

ody
Mind
Attack
Defense
Move

Starting Weapon: Dual Daggers
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can not wear any armor?

***Skills***
1. Sneak - If no monsters are in sight, the rogue may declare they are using stealth. If she comes across any monsters than a single dice must be rolled. If a skull is rolled she avoids detection.
2. If sneaking the rogue may backstab a monster which adds an additional combat die to the attack and the monster rolls 1 less combat die for defense.
3. Vanish - 3x
4. When searching, the rogue my draw 2 treasure cards and pick 1.

[DullandRusty]

yeah, looks just like that (although see below for comment on the attack dice as we have 2 methods on playing the rogue).

yup, daggers are all she can use. starting, daggers are very weak as they are the normal 1 dice each. with the added artifact daggers they become more formidable, but they are never just a straight 4 combat dice type thing like a battle axe. the higher level damage is poison or combo based or other thematic damage ideas. the group seems to like it, as it differentiates the rogue's method of damage dealing from other characters.

we have played two different ways with the attack. I have two different groups that use the rogue I made. one group decided that the dual daggers are to just be lumped into 1 attack (1dice + 1 dice = 2 attack dice), while the other group's house rule is that when dual wielding you make 2 separate attacks, each with 1 corresponding daggers stats. So starting the rogue could make 2 1dice attacks. This is fun in later game with artifact mods as you can inflict separate effects on targets with the rogue's daggers (say poison with one and maybe a second dagger that will do the combo attack previously mentioned, or whatever appropriate rogue themed attack idea you have). the 1 combined attack makes it easier to track and speeds the game up slightly as it decreases the number of rolls on the rogues turn by 1, but the split attacks gives more freedom. both are fun, so play with hit however you like.

as for armor, we prefer no armor, but as you get into custom and late game content an option like leather armor that gives a small defense boost or thief slippers that give an extra dice roll for sneaking or a cloak that grants 1 extra vanish may be beneficial if the rogue is not keeping up to par with customized harder content. its similar to how the wizard has the wizard cloak artifact or the talisman that gives an extra mind point or the spell ring, etc.

as for the game we play, that's a complicated answer.
we play a customized game, custom content, custom high level monsters and bad guys, mini optional quests inside a normal campaign quest, and as you can guess, multiple different classes and mods to the current heroes as well, but the skills are introduced on the majority of the heroes at a slow rate. for example, the dwarf in our game was converted to a tank type character, one that can take the attack targeting someone else upon himself as a skill. he also has a fortitude type skill that he can use when getting killed where he can roll a dice and if he succeeds he stays alive with 1 bp. we call it the "will of the mountain". anyway, while he has those skills, he doesn't get them till after the majority of vanilla is done with. the heroes have to finish a number of quests before they "level" giving them a skill upgrade. nothing too overpowered to break the game, but something to add a little thematic spice. they start off vanilla characters in the vanilla game but soon start coming to life in their own special ways to give each class a little way to differentiate itself from the others. it makes our players each feel like they have something cool that individualizes their character and makes them take a more vested interest in developing a specific character over the campaign.

anyway, try it out. its pretty fun and the rogues skills are not too overpowered to use even in early stage vanilla game quests.

[Jazzdrummer]

yeah, looks just like that (although see below for comment on the attack dice as we have 2 methods on playing the rogue).

yup, daggers are all she can use. starting, daggers are very weak as they are the normal 1 dice each. with the added artifact daggers they become more formidable, but they are never just a straight 4 combat dice type thing like a battle axe. the higher level damage is poison or combo based or other thematic damage ideas. the group seems to like it, as it differentiates the rogue's method of damage dealing from other characters.

we have played two different ways with the attack. I have two different groups that use the rogue I made. one group decided that the dual daggers are to just be lumped into 1 attack (1dice + 1 dice = 2 attack dice), while the other group's house rule is that when dual wielding you make 2 separate attacks, each with 1 corresponding daggers stats. So starting the rogue could make 2 1dice attacks. This is fun in later game with artifact mods as you can inflict separate effects on targets with the rogue's daggers (say poison with one and maybe a second dagger that will do the combo attack previously mentioned, or whatever appropriate rogue themed attack idea you have). the 1 combined attack makes it easier to track and speeds the game up slightly as it decreases the number of rolls on the rogues turn by 1, but the split attacks gives more freedom. both are fun, so play with hit however you like.

as for armor, we prefer no armor, but as you get into custom and late game content an option like leather armor that gives a small defense boost or thief slippers that give an extra dice roll for sneaking or a cloak that grants 1 extra vanish may be beneficial if the rogue is not keeping up to par with customized harder content. its similar to how the wizard has the wizard cloak artifact or the talisman that gives an extra mind point or the spell ring, etc.

as for the game we play, that's a complicated answer.
we play a customized game, custom content, custom high level monsters and bad guys, mini optional quests inside a normal campaign quest, and as you can guess, multiple different classes and mods to the current heroes as well, but the skills are introduced on the majority of the heroes at a slow rate. for example, the dwarf in our game was converted to a tank type character, one that can take the attack targeting someone else upon himself as a skill. he also has a fortitude type skill that he can use when getting killed where he can roll a dice and if he succeeds he stays alive with 1 bp. we call it the "will of the mountain". anyway, while he has those skills, he doesn't get them till after the majority of vanilla is done with. the heroes have to finish a number of quests before they "level" giving them a skill upgrade. nothing too overpowered to break the game, but something to add a little thematic spice. they start off vanilla characters in the vanilla game but soon start coming to life in their own special ways to give each class a little way to differentiate itself from the others. it makes our players each feel like they have something cool that individualizes their character and makes them take a more vested interest in developing a specific character over the campaign.

anyway, try it out. its pretty fun and the rogues skills are not too overpowered to use even in early stage vanilla game quests.

Thanks for all the feedback. Very cool stuff. Right now I'm playing through just the vanilla stuff. I recently finished Kellar's Keep and am getting ready for Return of the Witch Lord so I'm trying to keep any custom heroes to be more or less on par with the default ones though I am thinking of exchanging the default ones with brand new heroes from the First Quest AD&D box. (See my thread on that here in the heroes subforum) Regardless I'm trying to keep them simple and clean but distinct...hopefully.
So your rogue in the early game is really dependent on the backstabs because it looks she's basically rolling on average with an occasional with a minus 1 defense to the enemy when she backstabs. Let me ask you another question on her sneaking ability> If she tries to sneak into a room and fails her sneak roll can she dip back out of the room on her next turn to enter sneak mode again while her comrades keep fighting? Though I think you said that once she fails her sneak roll against a monster she can no longer may the attempt again until she comes upon a new monster. Is that right?

[DullandRusty]

correct, she is dependent on backstabs for the bonus. the sneak can only be done once to a monster group. if the monsters in the room notice her (she failed the roll) or are already seeing other heroes/already fighting, they are on high alert and thus would notice her so she can't perform sneak.

overall, these skills fit really well with vanilla in my opinion. she doesn't have crazy overpowered skills and the attack level is on the same level as the normal heroes. none of the skills will be crazy game changers that break the system so it fits well.

[Jazzdrummer]

correct, she is dependent on backstabs for the bonus. the sneak can only be done once to a monster group. if the monsters in the room notice her (she failed the roll) or are already seeing other heroes/already fighting, they are on high alert and thus would notice her so she can't perform sneak.

overall, these skills fit really well with vanilla in my opinion. she doesn't have crazy overpowered skills and the attack level is on the same level as the normal heroes. none of the skills will be crazy game changers that break the system so it fits well.

Wow so she has to always enter the room first in order to get her backstab bonus? What about in a passage? Say a monster sees the dwarf first but the rogue is still around a corner. Can the rogue still sneak up on the monster even though it sees the dwarf and is coming after him? I like your concept here but it seems to me it would be easier to sneak up on a monster if he's already distracted. I would probably allow her to only fail on a in that case. What do you think? I see your point though, you don't want her to abuse the ability especially since the monster being targeted loses a defense die.
Now she gets 3 uses per quest for vanish right? I assume it acts like a spell and costs an action to use? Once it's used is she considered completely invisible? Are detection rolls needed?

[DullandRusty]

yup, it acts like a spell.

I have no problem with allowing her to use sneak anytime for the first time she gets to a monster group (meaning it could be used when the monster is dealing with a dwarf, etc.) I actually like the thought of playing that way(it fits thematically as you said) as long as it doesn't feel overpowered and get abused. if abused it could be overpowered a little, but honestly, most often the +1/-1 isn't a huge deal as it only applies to the first monster of a group. as once she comes out of the sneak to make the backstab attack on the first monster, the other monsters are aware of her and she can't use it on them .

for vanish I say it is a spell where she is completely invisible (no check). we don't allow backstab from it as a group preference, but if you limit the number of vanishes to 3 that might be ok. we tend to use vanish as a disappear and runaway when you get in trouble.

[Jazzdrummer]

yup, it acts like a spell.

I have no problem with allowing her to use sneak anytime for the first time she gets to a monster group (meaning it could be used when the monster is dealing with a dwarf, etc.) I actually like the thought of playing that way(it fits thematically as you said) as long as it doesn't feel overpowered and get abused. if abused it could be overpowered a little, but honestly, most often the +1/-1 isn't a huge deal as it only applies to the first monster of a group. as once she comes out of the sneak to make the backstab attack on the first monster, the other monsters are aware of her and she can't use it on them .

for vanish I say it is a spell where she is completely invisible (no check). we don't allow backstab from it as a group preference, but if you limit the number of vanishes to 3 that might be ok. we tend to use vanish as a disappear and runaway when you get in trouble.

Cool man. I have 2 threads I've started here on the heroes subforum where I talk about rogue/assassin heroes. If you get bored I would love for you to check it out and give me any feedback you have. The main thread is called "sneaky heroes for your pleasure". Anyways, I will definitely give your rogue here a try. I look forward to seeing the dagger artifact cards you have as well.