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Simple Leveling system

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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby Jafazo » Friday February 15th, 2019 1:11pm

mitchiemasha wrote:
Dougy Destroyer wrote:If the hero had missed the throw he could of still just retrieved his weapon in the same manner as I previously stated.


Nope! because the monster is still stood on it.


A simple solution to this would be to allow the weapon to be picked up as long as you are standing either on the Square or in an adjacent Square. You just need to specify who can pick up the weapon whether it's the hero who threw it or any hero or even monsters. You also need some kind of tile or marker to represent the throne weapon on the board.

Personally I think being able to pick up the weapon instead of having to search as an action is a much simpler and more effective solution.
Unless you specify your version I'm going by the US rules.
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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby mitchiemasha » Friday February 15th, 2019 1:19pm

Anderas wrote:I hate look up tables so that's not for me but others think differently of course.


I agree... The graphical shop or equipment deck is essential. The table would be a simple representation of the items with in the rule book. These aren't for players. Tables are for D&D.
Last edited by mitchiemasha on Friday February 15th, 2019 1:45pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby mitchiemasha » Friday February 15th, 2019 1:42pm

Jafazo wrote:
mitchiemasha wrote:
Dougy Destroyer wrote:If the hero had missed the throw he could of still just retrieved his weapon in the same manner as I previously stated.


Nope! because the monster is still stood on it.


A simple solution to this would be to allow the weapon to be picked up as long as you are standing either on the Square or in an adjacent Square. You just need to specify who can pick up the weapon whether it's the hero who threw it or any hero or even monsters. You also need some kind of tile or marker to represent the throne weapon on the board.

Personally I think being able to pick up the weapon instead of having to search as an action is a much simpler and more effective solution.


It's starting to get complicated with the adjacent squares "need to specify" etc. If you missed, who's to say it's even there, bounced off shield, monster dodged out the way, I'm not sure one could move a Fimir if it's stood on your AXE. Picking up something is already in the game, that's part of what the search mechanic actually is. I like the idea of a token, this could be placed in the room as a representation.

I did spend along time thinking about all the retrieving methods. The first version I used was to pick it up from the monsters square, until I realised the issues. The simple solution is...

"Lost weapons can be found if the area it was thrown in is searched"

No more complex wording of clarification... (edit: and monsters can't search, fixed, fixed, fixed)! With the added bonus of keeping them a 1 shot per bunch of monsters (thanks to searching mechanics). Preventing weapons intended to be used once being too powerful.

I feel like I'm disagreeing with everyone today, lol! but that's only because those are the ideas we tried first too!!!


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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby Jafazo » Friday February 15th, 2019 3:31pm

mitchiemasha wrote:
Jafazo wrote:
mitchiemasha wrote:
Dougy Destroyer wrote:If the hero had missed the throw he could of still just retrieved his weapon in the same manner as I previously stated.


Nope! because the monster is still stood on it.


A simple solution to this would be to allow the weapon to be picked up as long as you are standing either on the Square or in an adjacent Square. You just need to specify who can pick up the weapon whether it's the hero who threw it or any hero or even monsters. You also need some kind of tile or marker to represent the throne weapon on the board.

Personally I think being able to pick up the weapon instead of having to search as an action is a much simpler and more effective solution.


It's starting to get complicated with the adjacent squares "need to specify" etc. If you missed, who's to say it's even there, bounced off shield, monster dodged out the way, I'm not sure one could move a Fimir if it's stood on your AXE. Picking up something is already in the game, that's part of what the search mechanic actually is. I like the idea of a token, this could be placed in the room as a representation.

I did spend along time thinking about all the retrieving methods. The first version I used was to pick it up from the monsters square, until I realised the issues. The simple solution is...

"Lost weapons can be found if the area it was thrown in is searched"

No more complex wording of clarification... (edit: and monsters can't search, fixed, fixed, fixed)! With the added bonus of keeping them a 1 shot per bunch of monsters (thanks to searching mechanics). Preventing weapons intended to be used once being too powerful.

I feel like I'm disagreeing with everyone today, lol! but that's only because those are the ideas we tried first too!!!


I disagree with you on this. I don't feel that specifying the thrown object could be picked up from an adjacent square is 'more complicated' because the phrasing, adjacent squares, is explained and should be a familiar concept to HQ players. That whole 'search the square it landed on' is completely foreign and has the potential to be 'complicated' too (more complicated in my opinion). Such as how 'searching a square for a thrown weapon' works in conjunction with your other actions. Does it count as an action this turn? Is it some kind of free action? Can it be done while there's a monster in the room if all you're searching is a single square? What if more than one hero throws more than one weapon at a monster? Does a pile of thrown weapons build up in that square? If so, when we search to pick one up do we have to pick up from top to bottom of that stack or can we choose which thrown weapon to pick up? Is it possible to pick up more than one object from that square on a search? If numerous weapons were thrown throughout the room, is it possible to move onto a square, search it, pick up a thrown weapon, resume movement to another square, search it and pick up more weapons this way? "Hey guys, we can retrieve our magical throwing dagger!" If each hero has just one magical throwing dagger, your game is broken. Anything in any room had better have more than 4 body points in total if you want it to be a challenge, otherwise get ready for heroes to kick open a door and take turns throwing their magical throwing dagger at a monster to inflict 4 automatic points of damage., then retrieving their daggers. On each turn, all 4 heroes can now pump out at least 4 points of automatic damage this way so this is now the primary means of dealing with any enemy before even resorting to combat dice.

Any new system or idea we introduce is going to have to answer questions so using words like, 'what makes heroquest more or less heroquest' isn't a good foundation if you ask me. I've looked through lots of things posted throughout this forum & what I love are the many ways to go about and execute things for this game. I consider them all heroquest'ish variants. When it came out they basically gave us a simple game and that leaves room for countless methods of improvement or adjustment.

Let's be clear on this, I'm not a fan of retrieving thrown weapons, they were intended to be lost once thrown. When you let players retrieve them, you're changing the game drastically. I don't like the problems it introduces no matter which seemingly easy way anyone tries to incorporate it with. If you ARE going to allow heroes to pick up thrown weapons though I do feel that simplifying it as much as possible is vital. Between just letting a hero who threw it picking it up versus putting them through some additional 'search this spot' mechanic, I feel letting them pick it up automatically is much easier. The hero who threw it is the only one who can pick it up as long as he moves onto the square it's on, the end. Even allowing other heroes to pick it up leads to complication, like if a player prioritizes picking up thrown weapons to sell them back in town.

I say don't let thrown items be retrieved period, the end.
Unless you specify your version I'm going by the US rules.
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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby mitchiemasha » Friday February 15th, 2019 11:04pm

I say don't let thrown items be retrieved period, the end.


I can't argue against that... you're right but... In my experience no one ever buys throw-able weapons. And, if they did, losing them is a perfect reason to never throw it. It's a playable mechanic that never gets played, hence why we changed it. If your experience is different well so be it. Making them retrievable, they get bought, they get thrown, new characters come into existence, like dual wielding Axe throwing Dwarfs. I don't know how often you've played HQ, but what i say isn't wrong.

As for the rest of your wording. WTF! The search mechanic is simple. You search, you find, no need to think about any of the complexity you've delved into.


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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby mitchiemasha » Friday February 15th, 2019 11:14pm

Sorry... I've reread your post and
That whole 'search the square it landed on' is completely foreign and has the potential to be 'complicated' too (more complicated in my opinion).

I totally agree, this is 1 of the very reasons I don't like that version of the mod. I think you may have mistaken my take on how i believe this variable should work in a board game. No where did i mention 'search the square it landed on' everything I've mentioned apposes this idea. Reread my words as i did yours and you might begin to see the logic!


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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby Jafazo » Saturday February 16th, 2019 12:57am

mitchiemasha wrote:
I say don't let thrown items be retrieved period, the end.


I can't argue against that... you're right but... In my experience no one ever buys throw-able weapons. And, if they did, losing them is a perfect reason to never throw it. It's a playable mechanic that never gets played, hence why we changed it. If your experience is different well so be it. Making them retrievable, they get bought, they get thrown, new characters come into existence, like dual wielding Axe throwing Dwarfs. I don't know how often you've played HQ, but what i say isn't wrong.

As for the rest of your wording. WTF! The search mechanic is simple. You search, you find, no need to think about any of the complexity you've delved into.


My guess is you're looking at the dagger. I certainly wouldn't spend 25 gold just to attack at a range with just 1 defendable CD. There's a crossbow for ranged options. The search mechanic would need to explain the questions I asked. In light of this new info though, lowering dagger prices would seem like a more appealing solution to me. 5 gold per dagger or 5 gold for a set of 2 daggers might solve the problem more effectively. 'Retrieving thrown weapons' as a bridge to new classes just seems unnecessary. A dual wielding or weapon throwing class could be whipped up without the need for that kind of clutter, relying on his own stand alone rules.

I've been playing on and off since it came out in the US over 20 years ago. One of the 1st additions I made was to expand the armory, only, for some stupid reason I allowed weapon attack dice to stack by wording it to say, "gives you an extra X attack dice." L.M.A.O. What a mess that turned out to be. I'd buy enough weapons to throw down 10 attack dice & responded for the EW by creating monsters with insane stats that would mop the floor with a normal party. I made quests, spells, artifacts, all that jazz. Then I started making entire versions of Heroquest. One specifically for kids of different age ranges, a Hero quest card game, A D&D equivalent Hero Quest, different Town Life activities like tournaments that gave players opportunities to gamble and such. Lots of memories. This game's my jam. Even if no one around me cares to play it, I'll keep tinkering with it.

Hmm... Maybe, a HeroQuest tattoo...
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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby mitchiemasha » Saturday February 16th, 2019 9:11am

Sounds like a long twisted road. A journey well worth the making.

Jafazo wrote:My guess is you're looking at the dagger.

Not specifically, I didn't have any unique weapon in mind, it's simply a 1 for all mod.
lost weapons are found if the area it was lost in is searched

The original rule still stands,
thrown weapons are lost

Don't forget we have "broken" and a dagger only rolls 1Cd6, rolling :blackshield: is going to be more likely, effectively the same as permanently lost.
For the Axe it would be :blackshield: :blackshield: .

I wouldn't get me started on the dagger. Some people like to play those types of Heroes and it has it's own unique progression, "skill tree", achieved by purchasing the right items and utilising the start skill, Assassin. This can result in a deadly multi strike hero, lots of weak dagger attacks.
Last edited by mitchiemasha on Saturday February 16th, 2019 9:26am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby mitchiemasha » Saturday February 16th, 2019 9:23am

Jafazo wrote: lowering dagger prices would seem like a more appealing solution to me.


I did lower the cost first... but then... I liked the idea of changing as little of the original rules as possible. There's only 1 rule that's outright changed, the Short Sword. The rest of the mods are mixed from both versions or twists added to play on the original words. Improving it with out changing it became the challenge. The making of what Advanced HeroQuest should of been. What we got was a completely different game, everything we loved removed, not the same game with added complexity. Which is why my first quest book uses AHQ tiles (changes it up for the players) and I ported the little round tokens instead of using the Chaos Card system loved here. Those guard figures make perfect cheap mercenaries too.


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Re: Simple Leveling system

Postby SirRick » Saturday February 16th, 2019 12:36pm

I like the idea of a leveling system, and if a specific quest book was made around it, it would be awesome to play. As far as the original quests, such frequent improvements are unnecessary. Maybe slow improvements after each quest book so the heroes have a couple extra abilities for AtOH and beyond? Such improvements might make the later quests more playable without hiring so many mercenaries.

I would likely grant heroes who finish the game system book a choice of an additional body point or mind point. Each quest book after that I might let the heroes pick from certain abilities similar to the things the OP came up with (I also really like the Sixth Sense ability!)

As for retrieving thrown weapons, it gives you a reason to buy them. Why buy a spear to chuck at someone once, when you can hire 2 crossbowmen for the same price?

I like the idea of using an action to retrieve such a weapon, like a "Retrieve Item" action. It works well in rooms, but what about corridors? If the Wizard threw a dagger at a goblin on the opposite side of the board, what happens in that situation?

The corridor could be filled with traps, or monsters could be hiding in the double-wide hallway. Would using this action automatically trigger these things? It makes sense to search the square the monster was at implying the hero moves around nearby squares in case the weapon flies past the monster and is not stuck in the body.

Even then this might trigger the appearance of more monsters around a nearby corner. I find it hard to believe monsters would just sit there and watch a hero scrounging around for a weapon and not attack. So I would like to allow retrieving thrown weapons, but I'm not sure how I would implement it.


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