Need some opinions...

[Gold Bearer]

Hello Mickey, how's it going?

All I want to know is if he seems balanced or not; does he seem thematic or not. I personally like the idea of using black shields at least in this instance.

I've never seen a problem with using black shields for other things, I've always seen them as a handy variant than can be used for basically anything you like. White shields on the other hand I don't like use for monsters and I like skulls to always signify something damaging/offensive.

Here's my assassin if you want some more ideas:

M: Highest two of three dice (ten with fixed movement), A1 (Dagger), D1, BP6, MP4.

You land a death strike that kills the target outright if all the attacking dice were skulls and you wound the target.

When you're attacked in melee roll a dice for every skull the attacker rolled before you defend and if any are white shields you dodge the attack.

You fail a jump on a black shield instead of a skull.

You are unable to use two handed melee weapons and helmets and are only able to wear light armour.

[Jazzdrummer]

Gold Bearer, thanks for your feedback. You have some nice ideas here one of which is similar to an idea I heard from another thread I started a few years ago. Let me make sure I'm understanding you here:

Assassin

Body
Mind
Attack
Defense
Move (Pick the highest two of the three)

Starting weapon: Dagger
Starting Armor: None

Restrictions: Can not use helmets, plate armor, or two-handed weapons. (Chain mail armor is okay?)

Abilities
1. Death Strike - You automatically slay the target if you roll all skulls on the attack roll and at least one wound is applied to the monster. (Sounds like a short sword is the best weapon here?)
2. When attacked, before rolling defense, you may roll a dice for every skull the monster rolled. If you roll any white shields then you dodge the attack.
3. You fail jumping a trap on a black shield instead of a skull.


I very much like the ideas you have here. Let me know if I'm mistaken on anything here. My real only question is he allowed to use Chain armor? If so that would give him a standard 2 defense. But I'm wondering with the dodge ability is it best to just keep his natural defense at 1. I dunno. Either way, great feedback.

[mitchiemasha]

All I want to know is if he seems balanced or not; does he seem thematic or not. I personally like the idea of using black shields at least in this instance.

But you're forgetting, we is interested in your ideas for our games, lol!!! But yeah, it would work fine if your game doesn't include those other ideas.

[Gold Bearer]

Let me know if I'm mistaken on anything here. My real only question is he allowed to use Chain armor?

Well I play EU rules where chainmail gives a flat three defence dice instead of +1 (and costs 50gp less), and no he can't use chainmail but I've got light armour that he can use that gives two defence dice. I've also got special equipment including elven ringmail which is light armour and gives three defence dice for 700gp. He actually shouldn't be able to use a shield though, that's something he can do at veteran, I've got a basic progression system that adds set skills. Also dodging only works for melee attacks.

I had a more complex version of the assassin because I was trying to recreate an Assassin's Creed type version but it was a bit too complicated and probably overpowered.

The dagger would be better than a short sword for a death blow because it's a 50% rather than 25% chance of rolling nothing but skulls but of course one skull is easier to defend.

[Jazzdrummer]

Let me know if I'm mistaken on anything here. My real only question is he allowed to use Chain armor?

Well I play EU rules where chainmail gives a flat three defence dice instead of +1 (and costs 50gp less), and no he can't use chainmail but I've got light armour that he can use that gives two defence dice. I've also got special equipment including elven ringmail which is light armour and gives three defence dice for 700gp. He actually shouldn't be able to use a shield though, that's something he can do at veteran, I've got a basic progression system that adds set skills. Also dodging only works for melee attacks.

I had a more complex version of the assassin because I was trying to recreate an Assassin's Creed type version but it was a bit too complicated and probably overpowered.

The dagger would be better than a short sword for a death blow because it's a 50% rather than 25% chance of rolling nothing but skulls but of course one skull is easier to defend.

Okay so with normal US rules he would only roll 1 natural defense dice? That would make sense in light of his dodge ability. And man I didn't realize that a dagger was better for a death blow than the short sword. But still with only a 50% chance he will miss often. Why not allow a black shield rolled to equal 2 ? That would give the assassin an overall better chance to hit along with the possibility of a bonus. As you said, defending against one skull is pretty easy. This would allow a slight chance of a getting 2 skulls without having to worry about multiple dice all rolling skulls which is only a 25% chance with 2 dice and much lower than that with 3.

[Gold Bearer]

Yea but if you're using the dodge mechanic with one defence dice and no special special armour then a shield should probably be allowed to compensate, most of the time you'll be getting hit with one skull which is hard to dodge.

Black shields counting as skulls is something I use but for more direct brawler types like the barbarian when he progresses. I like the way it's easier to score a death strike with less dice, it fits well with the dodging being easier if you're attacked with more dice. With only one black shield on each dice you'll get a death strike more than you'd think.

[Jazzdrummer]

Why not just give him the standard 2 defense but not allow him to wear armor of any kind? Honestly having the ability to dodge along with being able to roll standard defense seems odd to me for some reason. For example: Let's say a Fimir rolled 2 skulls on an attack against the assassin. The assassin would respond by rolling 4 defense. (2 dodge dice + his 2 regular defense dice) That's quite good. With a maximum of 2 natural defense he would always roll a minimum of 3 defense dice. 1 dodge dice + his 2 regular defense dice) You could give him ONLY the dodge ability. So his defense would be 0* with the asterisk representing his dodge ability. It's a nerf but it seems more thematic. He's rolling 3 movement dice and rely on dodging so he wouldn't be wearing armor since he's relying on speed and agility. Or you could even change his movement ability to move/attack/move and this would allow him to dart in and out of combat which would help him defensively as well.

As far as the death strike goes you're probably right. Sotiris had a version of this as well that he came up with in an older thread I created several years ago. His version was based on only using a dagger as well. I tried him in a game or two and found the assassin missed a ton rolling only 1 die and I think he only 'assassinated' 2 targets; one being a fimir and another a chaos warrior I believe in one particular game. Otherwise he caused no damage which I guess is the idea with an assassin. You either kill the target outright or you don't...lol. So it didn't trigger that often which is luck based anyways. Now his version also had no other special abilities if I remember correctly. With that being said I do like the idea of only using a dagger. And really this is probably the best way to implement a death strike type of ability. My version where a black skull equals an unblockable hit thematically seems more like what poison would do since poison would generally bypass armor. I like both ultimately though my version's "poison" ability would trigger more often though only causing 1 damage. So I guess take your pick: Death Strike or Poison. One happens less often but kills the target outright and other triggers more often but only seeps the life of the monster a little at a time. So I think the top 3 versions would be...


Assassin

Body
Mind
Attack or (If dual wielding)
Defense
Movement (Can move-attack-move)
Starting Weapon: 2 daggers (Can carry up to 4)
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can only use daggers and due to his sneak nature he can not wear armor

**Poison** If you roll a on your attack roll you deal 1 unblockable damage.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assassin

Body
Mind
Attack
Defense 0* (You roll a for every that is rolled against you when attacked)
Movement (Pick the highest 2)
Starting Weapon: Dagger
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can only use daggers and can not wear armor

**Death Strike** If you deliver a wound to a monster it is slain outright regardless of how many BP it has.
**Agility** You fail a jump on a instead of a .
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Rogue

Body
Mind
Attack
Defense
Movement
Starting Weapon: Shortsword
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can not wear heavy armor or use two-handed weapons

**Opportunist** When attacking a monster that is adjacent to another hero all rolled count as .
**Quick Reflexes** You do not spring hazards or hidden traps unless a skull is rolled on 1 die.



Which one is the best? I dunno. They all seem quite cool in their own unique way.

[Gold Bearer]

Why not just give him the standard 2 defense but not allow him to wear armor of any kind? Honestly having the ability to dodge along with being able to roll standard defense seems odd to me for some reason. For example: Let's say a Fimir rolled 2 skulls on an attack against the assassin. The assassin would respond by rolling 4 defense. (2 dodge dice + his 2 regular defense dice) That's quite good. With a maximum of 2 natural defense he would always roll a minimum of 3 defense dice. 1 dodge dice + his 2 regular defense dice) You could give him ONLY the dodge ability. So his defense would be 0* with the asterisk representing his dodge ability. It's a nerf but it seems more thematic.

Because I really like that more powerful blows are easier to dodge, it's very assassiny. By taking away the shield, helmet and chainmail he gets three defence dice less available to him (he can get two dice with light armour but you can't really count the special armour giving him three because others have expensive special armour giving them four in my rules), I think that's more than enough to make up for the dodging.

It does scale up rapidly though with more powerful attacks. In your example it's actually better than four defence dice because if either of the first two are a white shield it negates both skulls. It's only for melee attacks though, which is the vast majority but he is more susceptible to ranged weapon and spell damage and most of the time in melee he'll be dodging one skull anyway. Actually there's no point in rolling separately for one skull other than if you want to know thematically what happened, it's really just an extra defence dice.

I like your Rogue's Quick Reflexes ability, I might have to steal that. Here's my Rogue. The Assassin and Rogue are actually my favourite two heroes I've done. I posted a load of them here if you want some more ideas. viewtopic.php?f=203&t=2645 I need to update and order them better so they're in neater grouping, I still haven't finished the list yet.

Rogue
Body
Mind
Attack
Defense
Move (Pick the highest two of the three)


Race: Human. Class: Thief. Equipment: Dagger.

• You are unwilling to share any items or gold with other characters and they're unwilling to share with you and you can only trade with them if what you're getting is of equal value to what you're trading.
  
  
• You are able to disarm traps using the Tool Kit rules as standard or using the Dwarf's rules if you're using a Tool Kit.
  
  
• When you're attacked in melee roll a dice for every skull the attacker rolled before you defend, if any of them are white shields you dodge the attack.
  
  
• You can use any equipment you find, using the tools of evil means nothing to you and you can graverob from any dead Followers but you can't use evil magical stuff like Wight Blades.
  
  
• You can attempt to steal if you start your turn directly adjacent to another character by rolling a combat dice, failing on a skull, succeeding on a white shield and stealing your choice of either a potion, a scroll or ten times the amount of a dice roll of gold, and if it's a black shield you get caught and attacked once by that character straight away with their best weapon.
  
  
• You can Haggle with a shop owner by rolling a dice and if it's a white shield you get 10% off all purchases and 10% added on to all sales, but if it's a black shield you have to pay 10% extra on all purchases and you get 10% added on to all sales.
  
  
• You can attempt to sell patched up damaged equipment by rolling a combat dice and if you roll a skull the shop keeper doesn't buy it, on a white shield they do and on a black shield you get thrown out and barred until the next adventure, and you can't buy a direct replacement for a dodgy item you've just sold (far too obvious).
  
  
• You fail a jump on a black shield instead of a skull.
  
  
• You are unable to use two handed melee weapons or any type of shield and helmet and can only wear light armour.

Veteran

• You are able to use evil magical equipment.
• You can attempt to read a spell from a scroll rolling a combat dice, on a skull it's successful, on a white shield it fails, on a black shield it fails and you loose the scroll.

Master

• You successfully dodge on a black as well a white shield.

Legend

• You are able to backstab with a one handed blade (axes don't count) attacking with two extra combat dice from directly behind and with one extra combat dice from diagonally behind (assuming you're using a weapon that can attack diagonally).

[Jazzdrummer]

Thanks for all the feedback. I really like all the ideas you have here. I'll keep these in mind if I decide to add levels to the heroes. But this is really good stuff here. So Nice job. But I would I say out of the three versions I listed that probably the 1st and 3rd would be most consistently useful. The 2nd one, though arguably the most thematic, will probably not pull off the death strike that often while the other two will contribute in every fight. I'm definitely going to try all of them out though.

[Gold Bearer]

Let me know how death strike works out for, and dodging as well if you do decide to give it a try.