Carl Forhan's Rogue vs Original Heroes

[Jazzdrummer]

Malcadon, do you think the Rogue is balanced against the other heroes?

[Sotiris]

Nice template!
Here's an altered version of the Assassin.

Assassin You are the Assassin, a trained adventurer who moves fast and kills faster. When you inflict damage you instantly kill your enemy, regardless of his Body Points. Your armoury options are restricted, so use your advantage well if you are to survive.

Movement	Attack Dice	Defense Dice	Body Points	Mind Points
2d6min=4	1	2	7	3

Starting Weapon: Dagger (you may use only short blades) Starting Armour: None (you may not use Shield or Plate mail

I have been thinking about making more blank templates for monsters, mercenaries and cards in general (each with their own needs). But I'll do that on a dedicated thread. (Where would I even post something like this, on this forum?)

HeroQuest additions->Cards

[Jazzdrummer]

I like it!!!! Sotiris does short blades mean he can use a short sword?

[Malcadon]

Malcadon, do you think the Rogue is balanced against the other heroes?

Compared to the other Heroes, he is weaker. His is mostly do to the low amount of Body and Mind Points. All other Heroes total out to 10, but this guy is only 7. But at the same time, each Hero has an advantage: The Barbarian gets a starting Attack dice of 3; The Dwarf can disable traps with great skill; The Elf has 1 spell group; and The Wizard has 3 spell groups (this is balanced out by heavy limits on armor and weapon use).

The Rogue has three advantages: the ability to disable traps with great skill; the ability to backstab; and a special dagger-throwing ability. His primary disadvantage is his slight limited armor/weapon-use (but not as extreme as The Wizard). His ability to disable traps should be a given (as in, not penalizing his Body and Mind Point total), just like The Dwarf. His backstabbing ability is a real advantage, as he could keep using it with ether: maneuvering around monsters (with facing rule); or greeting (attacking) new monsters. Regardless how it is used, the +2 to melee attacks is a huge advantage, especially how you can use it multiple times a Quest. The dagger-throwing ability is a small advantage, but not equal to knowing even a single spell group. It is a one-off ability (once a Quest), and in the end, it costs one whole dagger to use (25gp). This ability is not worth a whole Body or Mind Point!

If you make his Body Points 6 (strong like The Elf) and his Mind Points 3 (smart like The Dwarf) (basically, +1 each), then he would be more balanced (it would total 9, but backstabbing his a huge advantage, and the dagger-throwing ability is balanced out by limited armor/weapon-use).

So there you go!

[Jazzdrummer]

Malcadon, do you think the Rogue is balanced against the other heroes?

Compared to the other Heroes, he is weaker. His is mostly do to the low amount of Body and Mind Points. All other Heroes total out to 10, but this guy is only 7. But at the same time, each Hero has an advantage: The Barbarian gets a starting Attack dice of 3; The Dwarf can disable traps with great skill; The Elf has 1 spell group; and The Wizard has 3 spell groups (this is balanced out by heavy limits on armor and weapon use).

The Rogue has three advantages: the ability to disable traps with great skill; the ability to backstab; and a special dagger-throwing ability. His primary disadvantage is his slight limited armor/weapon-use (but not as extreme as The Wizard). His ability to disable traps should be a given (as in, not penalizing his Body and Mind Point total), just like The Dwarf. His backstabbing ability is a real advantage, as he could keep using it with ether: maneuvering around monsters (with facing rule); or greeting (attacking) new monsters. Regardless how it is used, the +2 to melee attacks is a huge advantage, especially how you can use it multiple times a Quest. The dagger-throwing ability is a small advantage, but not equal to knowing even a single spell group. It is a one-off ability (once a Quest), and in the end, it costs one whole dagger to use (25gp). This ability is not worth a whole Body or Mind Point!


If you make his Body Points 6 (strong like The Elf) and his Mind Points 3 (smart like The Dwarf) (basically, +1 each), then he would be more balanced (it would total 9, but backstabbing his a huge advantage, and the dagger-throwing ability is balanced out by limited armor/weapon-use).

So there you go!

I was going to use the flanking idea which would grant the thief +1 on the attack and remove the natural ability to disable traps. With these subtle changes in mind, would you still raise his body and mind points by one?

[Malcadon]

I was going to use the flanking idea which would grant the thief +1 on the attack and remove the natural ability to disable traps. With these subtle changes in mind, would you still raise his body and mind points by one?

That trap disarming ability is iconic with fantasy Thieves, namely the D&D Thief/Rogue. If you are to loose an ability, you should ether add another Body Point bonus (making it 7, on top of the suggested +1 to BP & MP), or add in a whole new ability.

The ability to make a +1 attack by flanking a monster would still be a major advantage, as other players would actively maneuver their Hero to allow you to have that boosted attack, if only to shorten the battle a little. Unless other useful abilities are added (rules for becoming invisible, etc.), I would still give Carl Forhan's Rogue a +1 to BP & MP, as it is still underpowered. In that link, I listed a Thief of my own design:

The Thief You survived on the streets by stealing and cunning. You have refined your craft to become a highly skilled stalker and cutthroat. You are not a strong fighter, but you have the ability to disable traps with great skill, hide in shadows, take things without being seen, and to strike at the hearts of inattentive monsters. (see rule sheet for more info)

Movement	Attack Dice	Defense Dice	Body Points	Mind Points
2d6	1	2	5	2

Starting Weapons: Dagger Starting Armor: None

Special Rules for the Thief Rules for Invisibility: As long as you are invisible, you may only move and perform no action save for free actions (open doors, drink potions, etc.). Enemies will ignore you, and should you enter a new room that is occupied by monsters, they will remain inactive until a visible Hero comes within sight (use Inactive markers to note these monsters). If you do any other action, you will become visible. If a monster uses a range weapon to attack a visible Hero beyond the invisible Thief (that is, the invisible Thief is stand in-between the monster and it's target), the Evil Wizard Player rolls a Combat Die. If a White Shield is rolled, the Thief is attacked instead, but with an extra Combat Die to defense. Anything else would mean that the monster attacks the original target in the normal way. Weapons and armor usable by the Thief: Bow, Bracers, Cloak, Dagger, Shortsword, Sling and Staff. The Thief has the following skills: Hide in Shadows The Thief can, as an action, become invisible. If you somehow become visible, and you will not be able to become invisible again until there are no monsters in sight. Backstabbing If you are invisible, you may attack an adjacent monster in a way where it would not be able to make a defense roll. Once you make the attack, regardless of outcome, you are no longer invisible. Pickpockets If you are invisible in a room occupied by monsters, you may search it for treasure. The Evil Wizard Player rolls a Combat Die from behind the screen in secrete. If anything but a White Shield is rolled, the Hero remains invisible. If a White Shield is rolled, the Thief is no long invisible, and the player may not know until the monsters start attacking when it is their turn to act! Trap Mastery You may disarm a trap by rolling anything but a Black Shield. If you roll a Black Shield, you trigger the trap, take its effects, and it is the end of your turn.

How does it look?

[Jazzdrummer]

I think it looks great. I've got a few comments and questions:

1. I like the whole Hide in Shadows idea. Here's another version I came across here on the website just for comparison sake:

STEALTH : If no enemies are in sight the character may declare he is using stealth. During this time he may only roll one red die for movement. If he encounters any enemies he must roll a red die for each of his mind points. If the thief's roll is greater than the total mind points of all enemies in line of sight, he remains in stealth. This is broken if he takes any actions other than movement or opening doors, coming within one square of an enemy or failing his mind points roll. While in stealth he may backstab an enemy. In doing so the enemy may not roll defense.

What do you think? Interesting version. A bit more complicated but pretty cool. If you went with this version of the skill you might want to give the thief a mind point value of 3.

2. I'm not familiar with the bracers, cloak, sling, or bow. What are the stats for these items?

3. Does the thief have a tool kit or his is ability innate like the dwarf?

4. Typo on the word perform right at the beginning of the invisibility rules section.

I totally love the concept for sure man. Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

[Malcadon]

I think it looks great. I've got a few comments and questions:

...

I totally love the concept for sure man. Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

Thanks!

1. I like the whole Hide in Shadows idea. Here's another version I came across here on the website just for comparison sake:

STEALTH : If no enemies are in sight the character may declare he is using stealth. During this time he may only roll one red die for movement. If he encounters any enemies he must roll a red die for each of his mind points. If the thief's roll is greater than the total mind points of all enemies in line of sight, he remains in stealth. This is broken if he takes any actions other than movement or opening doors, coming within one square of an enemy or failing his mind points roll. While in stealth he may backstab an enemy. In doing so the enemy may not roll defense.

What do you think? Interesting version. A bit more complicated but pretty cool. If you went with this version of the skill you might want to give the thief a mind point value of 3.

Basically, the more monsters that are in a room, the harder it is for the the Hero to sneak in, with each MP being able to fool around 3 MP worth of monsters. That is, with only 2 MP, a Hero could sneak in a room of monsters with a total MP of 6, 50% of the time. If the Hero has 3 MP, he could have the same change in a room with an MP total of 10. (A stealthy Wizard could strut naked across all 14 Dungeons with no %$#& given!)

I have no idea what to say about your version. It is a more proactive "group intelligence" approach with regards to the monsters, compared with my static roll. The main issue comes from counting-up all the MP in each room (the EWP would have to jaunt each room in the Quest book), and having to count the dice total like a typical Mini-Six roll. This is one of those "whatever floats your boat" things — use what works for you.

2. I'm not familiar with the bracers, cloak, sling, or bow. What are the stats for these items?

Bracers and Cloak are from the UK rules, but I altered them for my own use. Bracers works like a buckler (a small dueling shield), in that they give +1 vs melee attacks only, while the Cloak give a +1 vs range attacks only, do to its ability to mask the Hero's profile. Anyone can use them, but Bracers takes up the shield slot, and the Cloak takes up the armor slot, so only the Thief and Wizard can truly benefit from them, as the other Heroes can is armor (the Shield and Chainmail) that covers both methods of attacks.

The Bow and Sling are both range-only weapons, like the Crossbow. Bow is a 2 weapon, and the Sling is only 1 strong. Anyone can use use a sling, but the Wizard cannot use the Bow.

Sorry, but I misplaced my notes, so I don't have their costs.

3. Does the thief have a tool kit or his is ability innate like the dwarf?

Same as the Dwarf. Although, as a house rule, they both can be reduced to rolling anything but a , if they loose all their gear.

4. Typo on the word perform right at the beginning of the invisibility rules section.

Fixed!

[Jazzdrummer]

So with your version as long as the thief is out of sight of monsters he can spend an action to hide in shadows? The only time a die is rolled is if the thief is between a monster and the target of that monsters ranged attack? Is that correct? Also if the thief fails his pickpocket roll does he still draw a treasure card. Does his turn immediately end? I like it a lot. I'll try out Carl's, yours, and Sotiris' assassin some more this weekend.

[Malcadon]

UPDATE: I just made a set of blank cards for this site. They include cards for Heroes, Monsters (with or without notes), Mercenaries and Cards in general.

They are best viewed with Romic Font installed on your system. (if you can see the font, you already get it)

You can check them out here.
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So with your version as long as the thief is out of sight of monsters he can spend an action to hide in shadows?

Yes.

The only time a die is rolled is if the thief is between a monster and the target of that monsters ranged attack? Is that correct?

The roll to see if you get hit by accident, but that is not the only time a die is rolled. If the Thief is searching an occupied room for treasure, a die is rolled to see if he gets caught.

Also if the thief fails his pickpocket roll does he still draw a treasure card. Does his turn immediately end?

If the die roll to search for treasure in an occupied room comes up a White Shield, the Thief keeps the treasure and continues his turn as normal. Because it was a secrete roll, the player is unaware that the inactive monsters are now active. Once it is the Evil Wizard Player's turn, the monsters will act. (I did this for a degree of suspense)

I like it a lot. I'll try out Carl's, yours, and Sotiris' assassin some more this weekend.

Thanks! I cant wait to hear how it plays out.