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Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby Sjeng » May 30th, 2013, 1:16 am

knightkrawler wrote:
Sjeng wrote:I do however also like the modern zombie, which is a dead person, still living on as a rotting corpse, with some basic instinct left in its decaying brain, lusting for flesh, as a result of some strange virus that spreads through blood and being bitten. Or sometimes even caused by some viral outbreak, spread by unknown manners. Totally different from the fantasy version though.


... sounds like a ghoul to me.

In the fantasy world perhaps. I'm still not 100% sure what a ghoul is exactly... They eat flesh from the living, yes, but are they themselves undead? Looks like it... But how are they different from a zombie then? Not a puppet of some necromancer? Then how do they live?
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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby mikemacdee » May 30th, 2013, 3:23 am

Ghouls are sentient beings, while zombies are not. Without orders from their reanimator, zombies are useless bodies who basically lumber or lay around, doing nothing. Where ghouls come from is irrelevant: they're sentient, be that sentience human- or animal-like, and may serve a greater master or lurk on their own.

Modern zombies are basically ghouls, but I think they're referred to by the Z-word because of Lucio Fulci's cult film Zombi 2, which put the voodoo element into George Romero's critters.


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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby Big Bene » May 30th, 2013, 5:35 am

chaoticprime wrote:Remember, Barbarians are called that because their language sounded like "bar, bar" to the Ancient Romans.
Greeks. :ugeek:
Have a look ;)


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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby knightkrawler » May 30th, 2013, 5:38 am

Big Bene wrote:
chaoticprime wrote:Remember, Barbarians are called that because their language sounded like "bar, bar" to the Ancient Romans.
Greeks. :ugeek:


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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby chaoticprime » May 30th, 2013, 6:05 am

mikemacdee wrote:Ghouls are sentient beings, while zombies are not. Without orders from their reanimator, zombies are useless bodies who basically lumber or lay around, doing nothing. Where ghouls come from is irrelevant: they're sentient, be that sentience human- or animal-like, and may serve a greater master or lurk on their own.

Modern zombies are basically ghouls, but I think they're referred to by the Z-word because of Lucio Fulci's cult film Zombi 2, which put the voodoo element into George Romero's critters.


Ghouls are evil beings that dig up and devour corpses. They have been described as living creatures and undead, both. In either case, they have always been intelligent.


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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby chaoticprime » May 30th, 2013, 6:10 am

Big Bene wrote:
chaoticprime wrote:Remember, Barbarians are called that because their language sounded like "bar, bar" to the Ancient Romans.
Greeks. :ugeek:


Whoops, that's right. The Romans copied the Greeks, at least. To the Greeks "barbaroi" were simply "those who are not Greek (including Romans, but particularly Perseans and Medes)." To the Greeks it was not the pejorative term that it would come to be with the Romans.


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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby Big Bene » May 30th, 2013, 10:02 am

OK.
The term "zombie" comes from the Haitean Voodo cult. A zombie is a person that has been buried and later dug up by a bokor - a voodo priest who serves the "evil" petro laos (in voodo, there are good and "evil", or rather dangerous, laos=spirits/gods) and practises black magic. Mostly the bokor will also have killed the victim before (by magical means). The zombie is then used as a slave laborer by the witch doctor, it is not a monster and normally not dangerous. The Bokor threatens his enemies not to be attacked by his zombies, but to become his zombies. Zombies are not rotten corpses, they are unearthed soon after the burial (I don't remember if it is the same night or three days after). Zombies in this sense are a real phenomenon, there are many reported causes. Of course, in a scientific sense, they probably havn't been really dead. There are different theories how the process works, but naturally it's hard to proove anything.
Ghouls are creatures from Arabian folklore (they are mentioned a few times in 1001 nights), basically an evil variant of djinni. They are not very well described, but normally they are incorporeal and non-human. The corporeal, corpse-eating monsters of modern western folklore are based on the novels of H.P Lovercraft, where ghouls are humanoid, dog-faced creatures who dwell on old burial grounds (but still not undead).
A revenant is someone who comes back (from the grave) - videre=to come, re- ="back", and thus in word and meaning the same as the German term wiedergaenger - "he who walks again". In French and German folklore these are just general words for the corporeal undead. A vampire can be called a "wiedergaenger" (same would be true for revenant).
Have a look ;)


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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby chaoticprime » May 30th, 2013, 12:11 pm

Lovecraft's Ghouls came from the novel Vathek, along with a good deal more inspiration for his ideas. Its an 18th century Gothic horror novel based in Arabic mythology. It was written a few years after the first English language versions of 1,001 Arabian Nights. At least, that's what it says in the jacket cover of my own copy. They were described as grave-robbing spirits (specifically named for seizing corpses; ghul, originally). The words spirit and ghost are now associated with what we'd call incorporeal undead, but for a good long while they both basically common parlance for anything supernatural that was frightening. Though the etymology of neither word means anything at all similar. Blame Chaucer.

Zombies, as stated above, are servants of Bokor (they can serve good or bad Loa, even Rada Loa). The actual word, like much of voodoo, has African roots. Originally, it was a Kimbundu-language word, "nzambi," that basically meant the same thing as "god." Keep in mind that a god, outside of Old English circles, is actually anything invoked--as in an invocation. The first effort to write down that language was made by Portuguese Jesuits. In fact, the only form the language exists in today, is in the songs written in it that are still being sung. Any way you put it, they're remote-controlled slaves, that may or may not be "all-the-way" dead, but usually it is suggested that they are. Voodoo has a couple extra stages of death in its cycle.

The strictest requirement for something being undead, is that it had to have sometime been dead, but no longer is, and therefore is defined by what it is not--living or dead.

Also, on the subject of Jinn, did you know that it is because of the French translation of 1,001 Arabian Nights that the common spelling for jinni, the singular form of the plural collective jinn, was changed to "genie?" That was because it sounded identical to the French word for genius, also "genie." (Also from my book). Ultimately, though, jinn also means the same thing as spirit and ghost do. They're all regional descriptions for the same idea.

Similarly, undead and revenant basically mean the same thing, with the only distinction between them logically, being how they have been used in fantasy--the same goes for the above jinn, ghosts, spirits, and so on. The unifying theme for revenants was always revenge/willed back to kick ass.


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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby Big Bene » May 30th, 2013, 3:07 pm

chaoticprime wrote:Vathek ... an 18th century Gothic horror novel based in Arabic mythology.
Well, that's new to me. Very interesting. But it's surely still Lovecraft from whom western fantasy authors got the idea.
chaoticprime wrote:...described as grave-robbing spirits...
The words spirit and ghost ... for a good long while they both basically common parlance for anything supernatural that was frightening. Though the etymology of neither word means anything at all similar.
"Spirit" (latin spiritus) is a well defined term in Greaco-Roman philosofy and always meant an incorporeal beeing or an incorporeal part (the "spirit") of a otherwise corporeal being (like a human). "Ghost" (German "Geist" from Indoeuropean "gheis"= "to be frightened, moved") indeed was originally a generic term for supernatural beeings, but it was used in the modern sense (i.e. uncorporeal) since the middle ages (under the influence of the latin "spirit",for which it was used as translation, expecially as the Holy Ghost).
chaoticprime wrote: Any way you put it, [Zombies] are remote-controlled slaves, that may or may not be "all-the-way" dead, but usually it is suggested that they are.
Well, that's what folklore sais, but using my (biological) definition of death as a scientifically thinking European I'd say the real Zombies in Haiti have probably been not "dead", butin some form of suspeded animation.
chaoticprime wrote:Ultimately, though, jinn also means the same thing as spirit and ghost do.
Don't think so. "Spirit" and "ghost" don't have to, but very well can, describe the undead spiritual form of a dead human being. Djinni are no dead humans, they are a species of their owne, having been created from fire after the angles but before the humans. Their name means "hidden ones" and they are normally described as invisible unless taking the form of some other being (human or animal).
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Re: Anti-Heroes (Revenant, Rogue, Witch)

Postby Sjeng » May 30th, 2013, 3:14 pm

Holy moly, I don't check the forum for 1 busy workday, and you guys turn it into Ye Olde Fantasy Wikipedia! :O
Nice reading though :)
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