Need some opinions...

[mitchiemasha]

I hadn't thought about unblockable damage, which is technically what it should be. I might have to revisit this. It could be an auto hit defendable, a roll to hit not defendable or a full auto wound. The roll to succeed combat is achieved by pulling off sneak in the first place.

Distraction, i figured that a lot of how the Thief could sneak would be as such. Even if the other heroes aren't there, his trickery with noise and reflection would be how a lot of his sneak was achieved, like magic that isn't magic.

Search in the presence of monsters is the initial 'Thief' skill for sure.

Edit: I suppose... If using the normal combat system, such A high Ad6 for such a small weapon could still reflect the power of back stab. The monster isn't technically defending but stronger ones would still be less likely to die.

[Jazzdrummer]

I tried out the thief in a few example turns and the stealth system worked really well and I think unblockable damage makes a lot of sense thematically. Still even with the unblockable damage it's possible you will miss with both dice. But the question is if landing 2 unblockable hits is too much despite the set up conditions of having to be in stealth. Not sure. If you go with extra dice for backstab then I would say to still limit the thief to only a dagger/rapier/short sword as far as melee weapons go to really reflect the power of that backstab. Then if the thief backstabs he gets 2 additional dice. If you go this route then let the monster roll defense as well. That way the thief would really only engage in melee if he is backstabbing otherwise he should use a short bow or sling. That's how earlier editions of the thief would function anyways. When you get a chance try out some of these ideas and let me know what you think. Here's again a list of backstab options:

1. The current one I've listed where you would roll a maximum of 2 and any skulls would count as an unblockable hit.

2. Allow a single unblockable hit. No attack roll required.

3. Add additional dice to the attack. If using dagger add 2 additional for a total of 3 . If using a short sword or rapier then the thief would roll a total of 4 . That might be a bit much. Anyways monster would roll for defense as usual. Personally I think only allowing the thief to backstab with a dagger is better thematically.

I personally like the 1st and 3rd option. 3rd is a bit weaker and therefore probably more balanced. So a thief using the 3rd option might look something like this:


Thief

Body
Mind
Attack
Defense
Move

Starting weapon: Dagger
Starting armor: None
Restrictions: Can not wear armor and can only use a dagger, short sword, rapier, sling, and short bow.

Abilities:
1. Starts with a toolkit
2. Stealth: If no enemies are in LoS at the start of your turn, you may use stealth but must roll one less movement die. If a monster appears in your LoS you must roll a die at the end of your movement for each monster that can 'see' you. If a black shield is rolled you are discovered, otherwise you remain undetected. While in stealth, you may only do free actions otherwise stealth is cancelled. The sole exception to this is searching for treasure. As long as monsters are in LoS you must continue to roll a die every turn at the end of your movement to maintain stealth even if you don't move. If you attack an adjacent monster from stealth, add an additional 2 to the roll against the monsters defense. Afterwards, regardless of outcome, you are detected.
3. When searching for treasure you may draw 2 cards and discard one. You may do this in the presence of enemies if you are in stealth.

[Jazzdrummer]

I just thought of another idea for a thief hero if you didn't want to mess with the whole stealth thing. Now this uses a similar idea to what wrote down in my initial post. Check it out...

Thief

Body
Mind
Attack
Defend
Move
Starting Weapon: Dagger (Starts with a toolkit)
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can not wear armor due to his sneaky nature. Can not use any two-handed weapons.

Abilities:
1. Sneak Attack - Whenever you attack an adjacent monster that is also adjacent to another hero you can count black shields as skulls during your attack rolls.
2. When searching for treasure you can draw 2 cards and discard one.

Basically the same as the initial one I posted but with a couple minor changes.

[Gold Bearer]

A skill I like to give custom heroes is disarms traps using the tool kit rules, if they have a toll kit then disarms traps using the dwarf's rules. It gives a nice step up and makes the tool kit much more useful.

[Jazzdrummer]

A skill I like to give custom heroes is disarms traps using the tool kit rules, if they have a toll kit then disarms traps using the dwarf's rules. It gives a nice step up and makes the tool kit much more useful.

Hey Gold Bearer! That's a great idea. Thanks for that suggestion.

[Jazzdrummer]

I have another Assassin idea. I really like the hero concept that revolves around dagger use and black shields. How about this:

Assassin

Body
Mind
Attack or (If dual wielding)
Defend
Move (Can move-attack-move)

Restrictions: Can only use daggers for weapons. Due to his sneaky nature he can not wear armor
Starting Weapon: 2 Daggers (Can carry up to 4)
Starting Armor: None

Abilities:
- Sneak Attack - If you roll a on the attack roll the target takes 1 unblockable damage

What do you think? I just picture this quick moving melee/ranged character that doesn't roll big amounts of dice and uses hit-and-run tactics. A perfect artifact for him would a be magical dagger of returning. So this character will only ever score 1 hit either as normal damage vs defense or as unblockable. Along with his incredible agility I think he would be a lot of fun without being overpowered. If he seems a bit underpowered then let him dual wield daggers in each hand where he would roll 2 and again, if any are rolled they are considered unblockable hits. Now with 2 attack dice, will come up more often and if he gets lucky to roll 2 then that would be 2 unblockable damage. But I can't imagine that happening that much.

[MadMickyG]

An assassin, when you think about it, should have the knowledge to kill things in one go, from a sneak attack perspective.

So having the assassin sneak up on a target and roll AD, scoring 2 allows insta-kill on anything that has standard defense of 2 or less. Tougher monsters, such as , and couldn't be killed, unless they have their Defense reduced. Undead cant be assassinated (unless maybe Spirit Blade)

Gives power to the assassin without overpowering. Can only 'assassinate' one monster per round (or per room even) as other monsters would be alerted.

Just some ideas anyway.

[Jazzdrummer]

Those are good ideas. Simple and clean. So he would still employ the 1 movement dice sneaking action right? You could just say a legal target is any monster that hasn't acted yet. But it doesn't really have to an assassin. It could be a thief or whatever. I just really like the idea of making hero that used daggers and for some odd reason using black shields in some way appealed to me. But it's been pointed out already that doing so kind of breaks the spirit of the game. But I appreciate your thoughts.

[mitchiemasha]

The only problem i have with the black shield is this is what i use to utilise damage. The dagger would be lost or blunt if rolling a black shield. I'm usually dead against Heroes having a positive with the symbol of evil. But, in this case it could be themed that the assassin is quite that way, converted or something.

[Jazzdrummer]

All I want to know is if he seems balanced or not; does he seem thematic or not. I personally like the idea of using black shields at least in this instance.