Mercenaries as heroes

[Blackthorn]

If I remember correectly, in the stats found in the BQP quest book it is stated the Crossbowman has also a shortsword which gives him 2 AD against adjacent opponents.

After checking the resources on this website I've discovered that are several variations on the Crossbowman's attack dice.

• In The Frozen Horror he has 3 AD and the quest book states that he can switch to a broadsword, also for 3 AD.
• The the EU versions in Wizards of Morcar and The Dark Company have 2 AD and don't reference what happens when he is adjacent to a foe. It seems the EU rules for the Croosbowman are different than they are for a hero using a crossbow in that the weapon is weaker and can be used attacking an adjacent foe
• In the localized versions of these two quests, the Crossbowman has 3 AD and switches to a shortsword for 2 AD for short range melees. I assume that Phoenix wanted to create a balance between the NA and EU versions as the NA stats make these characters more potent, whether enemies or hirelings.

Now I'm thinking that a hero version of the Crossbowman might have 3 AD, 2 DD, 6 BP and 3 MP. He would have a dagger (1 AD) for melees and move 2D6. The other mercenaries would have the same stats except for weapons and special abilities they had as NPC's.

[Daedalus]

@Blackthorn-

Nice pick up on the EU 2 Attack Dice Crossbowman. I never realized there was a difference between the European and North American versions. Yet, drathe always had it catalogued in right place. Perhaps I should have been more curious, as the EQP Ogre is also more powerful.

Phoenix's solution is economical and works as a comprehesive solution. Yet I feel your find suggests another possibility. Here are two seperate Crossbows for the US Armory:

           Light Crossbow
                 350 Gold Coins
                       Weapon

This long-range weapon gives you the
attack strength of 2 combat dice. You
may fire at any monster that you can
"see". However, you cannot fire at
a monster that is adjacent to you. You
have an unlimited supply of arrows.
May not be used by the Wizard.


           Heavy Crossbow
                 500 Gold Coins
                       Weapon

This long-range weapon gives you the
attack strength of 3 combat dice. You
may fire at any monster that you can
"see". However, you cannot fire at
a monster that is adjacent to you, nor
can you move and fire in the same
turn. You have an unlimited supply of
arrows. May not be used by the
Wizard.


For my game, I'd actually utilize expendable ammunition, as explained in this thread. That would change the price of the Light Crossbow to 250 gold coins with a replacement quiver of bolts/arrows costing 75 gold coins. The Heavy Crossbow would cost 350 gold coins with a replacement quiver of bolts/arrows costing 100 gold coins.

The Light Crossbow could easily be changed to a Shortbow. I chose Light Crossbow because it matched the EU Crossbowman and the Mercenary/Men-at-arms figures represent this. Finally, these weapons could also be easily modified for EU equipment cards, as well.

[Blackthorn]

There are actually a whole range (no pun intended) of potential issues that come with the crossbow such as expendable quarrels, reloading time (not a simple task with medieval weapons), effective range, decreased accuracy when firing at distant targets and the time it takes to switch to another weapon when attcking an adjacent foe. Part of me also wonders why you can't fire a crossbow at someone who is standing right next to you.

Aside from these issues, how do the (former) Mercenary hero stats I suggest below sound?

Crossbowman: AD 3(1), DD 2, BP 6, MP 3, Move: 2D6, Weapon: Crossbow/Dagger, Ability: Ranged attacks

Halberdier: AD 3, DD 2, BP 6, MP 3, Move: 2D6, Weapon: Halberd, Ability: Diagonal attacks

Scout: AD 2, DD 2, BP 6, MP 3, Move: 2D6+2, Weapon: Shortsword, Ability: Disarm traps

Swordsman: AD 4, DD 2, BP 6, MP 3, Move: 2D6, Weapon: Longsword (?)

I'm not sure what kind of weapon the Swordsman would actually be wielding to give him 4 AD, or if that even make sense for a hero to start with. If he has a regular broadsword he becomes a weaker Barbarian variant and if he has a longsword he makes the Halbredier redundant.

Also, should the Crossbowman start with a "small" EU style crossbow that gives him 2 AD and allows him to fire at adjacent foes? This would resolve the secondary weapon issue and he can alway "upgrade" to the large crossbow in the armory once he has some gold.

Lastly, if their BP is reduced to 6 like the elf but they have no magical ability would it make sense to have them start with a helmet for 3 DD?

[Daedalus]

I think your stats work very well as starting Heroes. Where I think they could be expanded is some sort of permanent advantage that isn't weapon based. The Barbarian starts with a weapon edge (my turn for a pun), but he retains the best Body Points and strength rolls in the game. I feel even the Barbarian is shortchanged when the other Heroes have bought all thier equipment. That starting Broadsword is pretty much meaningless by RotWL.

Your Mercenary Heroes with their 6 Body Points and 3 Mind Points will be eclipsed when the other Heroes have all the gear they could want. A Barbarian with a Crossbow is better than a Crossbowman with a Crossbow. However, if a further restriction was placed on non-Crossbowman Heroes, things could even up. Maybe other Heroes must take a turn to reload, or can't move and shoot in the same turn. Then a Crossbowman could continue to pepper monsters from range better than a Barbarian. The problem here is a house rule instead of new rules on a your new Hero card. Hmm. Maybe he could instead ignore other figures when determining LOS. I do like the starting 2-Attack-Dice Crossbow--I'd keep that one.

The same goes for the Halberdier. To make him better, you'd need to restrict diagonal attacks for other Heroes. Restrict Halberds to just your Mercenary Hero and nix the Longsword. Unfortunately, that would probably prove unpopular. Perhaps another benefit, such as 2 (or even 3) Attack Dice strength attacks from 1 orthogonal square beyond adjacent, just for the Halberdier.

The Scout's movement and disarm abilities aren't weapon based, so I think they work pretty well as is.

The Swordsman is problematic. I'd call his weapon a Greatsword, but I don't think it's attack arc would work well for diagonal attacks--leave that for the Halberd. Yet, I'm nervous about starting a Hero off with a 4 Attack Dice strength weapon. Perhaps he could start off with a Broadsword and be given an additional attack die when wielding a Broadsword or Longsword without a Shield. Again, you might need to restrict diagonal attacks when using the bonus die.

One last point to consider is that a Hero's Mind and Body Point scores total 10 together. Your Mercenaries only total 9. I'd say you could either bump the scores a point or consider a Mercenary's ability good enough to let things stand at 9. My opinion is to bump the scores, just to keep things the same.

[Blackthorn]

Daedalus, those are all very good observations. The advantages that the mercenaries posses make sense when they are used as NPC's, especially when a hero is choosing which one to hire, but as you point out it's difficult to maintain these advantages when converting them to heroes without incorporate a number of house rules. Perhaps the Crossbowman can have the ability to fire at an adjacent foe or through spaces occupied by other heroes as you suggest. The other mercenaries advantages are pretty much tied to their starting weapons excpet for the Scout who as a hero becomes more or less a Dwarf (albeit taller )

Maybe it would just be easier to have them be variations of the Barbarian. Just warriors with the same stats but different starting weapons. I never liked the idea of playing a Barbarian anyway. Can't a guy be a strong fighter without having to wear a loincloth?

[knightkrawler]

Greatsword for the Swordsman, two-handed, 4 AD (also diagonally [in a thrusting manner]).
No special ability, he already has the maximum AD.

[sadkitchen]

If the swordsman started with a 4AD weapon that can attack diagonally why would anyone ever play the Barbarian?
Just saying even at -1 BP That is freaking amazing and no one would notice the difference in BP until it doesn't matter anymore.

I don't know if there is a good way to 'balance' out the mercenary characters, but as a starting character 4 attack dice is OP.

-SadKitchen

[knightkrawler]

The only balanced way is to NOT let them start with their assigned weapons like I presented earlier in this thread.

[ken]

Interesting thread this, how do you feel about my villain, The Janitor, becoming a Hero? Shouldn't really call him a Hero, as he is only there for the cash, and personally, I like him!

[Ethica]

I don't think he belongs in heroquest at all.