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My first fan supplement

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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby Teldurn » November 6th, 2015, 11:02 am

cornixt wrote:Probably a good reason to make it not very good in the game. If you want people to use the medieval weapons then you can't have the thing that historically replaced them actually replacing them in the game. This kind of fantasy exists in that little period where guns weren't as good yet - because otherwise people would be using them instead - the fact that they aren't is proof that they aren't as good.

|_P
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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby cynthialee » November 6th, 2015, 2:06 pm

The balance for them is built in if you require loading actions. I use loading/manifesting actions at my RPG (which isn't HQ but my point is the same) for a few weapons that do substantial amounts of damage compared to other weapons. The need for a reload action is indeed tedious for some players, others will opt for it hoping for a large hit.
Let us consider the cross-bow 3 Attack Dice. No reload action required. (I see no range restriction in my set of HQ rules. If I am wrong please point me the rule in the basic rules set. I can be wrong, I often have been....)
Gun as proposed 3 dice no reload. Limited range.

If you boost the musket to 5 (or better 6) dice and require a loading action, then you are pretty much throwing the same amount of damage down range as the crossbow, but limiting it to one target.
Most monsters have very low Body points. A hit with a thrown dagger will drop a Goblin as sure as a battle axe will. Doesn't matter how he died. (If you have the artifact Magic Dagger in play, the heroes already have an insta-kill weapon for most monsters.)
With the control of a loading action and increased damage the desirability of the gun becomes less valuable. Sure I may be throwing 5 or 6 dice downrange, but it is all on one target. The character could take a crossbow and shoot 2 targets and kill two targets in 2 rounds.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby Teldurn » November 6th, 2015, 3:14 pm

Cynthialee, I'm not quite sure you're grokking that this is a specific supplement for HeroQuest Prime, which has its own set of rules - some of those rules are vastly different than the base game. Trying to compare it to those base rules are, at best, useless, and at worst, a point of unnecessary tension. In this case, the crossbow DOES have a range restriction in HQP. That is all that matters. I believe "Firearms & Black Powder" was written with that in mind.

So, I understand where you're coming from. I really do, but let me see if I am also understanding what you're trying to say regardless of the comparison to the base game rules.

You're wanting to balance the Musket by making it have either 5 or 6 Attack dice, but also to require a reload action. This effectively makes the player only attack every other round, which I would argue is Not Fun. The player is only participating half the time that everyone else is. That's why I think the occasional "cleaning" plus the looming risk of the thing blowing up in your face is a better (and also similarly thematic) option. It makes up for the lack of reloading by also being fun and balanced. The player will still be put out of play every so often, but it's unpredictable, which is infinitely more fun than knowing you're useless every other round.

Yes, in reality the crossbow requires reloading, which also takes a long time to do. And this has been taken out of the game, because I think it's not fun to play that. Game design always rides the razor edge of trying to find the right combination of verisimilitude, simulation, abstraction, and fun. It's probably impossible for everyone to universally agree whether a particular mechanic works. But that's the wonder of playing and running games. You can houserule it however you like to fit your desired playstyle. :)
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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby cynthialee » November 6th, 2015, 4:52 pm

The tactics of a reloading situation make for more fun as far as I am concerned. You do not have fun with reloads.

Edit to add: I am also hearing my input is worthless.
So why?
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby Teldurn » November 6th, 2015, 5:05 pm

cynthialee wrote:I am also hearing my input is worthless.
So why?

It's most definitely not worthless. I agreed that the ranges of both firearms needed to be increased because your expertise and experience showed that it does.

EDITED TO ADD: Trying to compare things built for one game with the rules for another game are what's worthless, because it doesn't apply.
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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby cynthialee » November 6th, 2015, 6:06 pm

Sorry I got touchy. I hunt with primitive tools every season I get the chance. I am friends with people who hunt with primitive tools. (I even know a couple of guys who spear hunt boar and bear with dogs!) So I know what they can and can not do.

As for mechanics of games not crossing over....
Many games share similar characteristics and mechanics on a base level. It is easy to convert most game elements from one game to another once you get an idea of power levels intended/designed, statistical chances and game theory. I can convert any game to any other game so long as I know the base mechanics of both game. Been doing it since D&D and Gamma World, on to World of Darkness, Saga: the Game, Hero Quest and other fantasy games all my gaming life.
So I call faulty logic there.

As for ranges of weapons like bows and basing it on the Body of a Hero....I can almost get behind this except it does not take into account the mechanical advantage of bows. Sure a guy can only throw a knife or spear so far and the mage should not throw as far as the barbarian. I can see it for thrown weapons. For bows, yes a barbarian can pull it faster than the mage, but the bow can only store so much energy. Exceed the bows limit and it will break. So he can't pull it farther than its max potential energy. Which according to the dice is always a set amount of dice to be rolled for said weapon.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby Teldurn » November 6th, 2015, 6:36 pm

Very true. But there's only so much you can do with the limited mechanics of HeroQuest. At some point, you just gotta chalk it up to abstraction and call it a day. Heh. :)
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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby cynthialee » November 6th, 2015, 11:16 pm

What of rifles?
It was in the mid 1400's that rifling first shows up, not that far behind the introduction of the smoothbore long gun. The mid 1300's being the first 'hand cannons'. And it is obvious that the gun proposed is further along the evolution of the gun by about 200 years. Well into the rifle era.

Now one of the issues with rifling and black powder weapons is they foul faster and require more loading time than a musket. Most military forces preferred the musket over the rifle. They wanted their soldiers shooting as much lead downrange as possible in the enemies general direction instead of aiming. Some armies guns even had their sights removed to discourage aiming and increase rate of fire.
Now it isn't until the 1800's that the elongated bullet is used with success...so we can outright dismiss this feature in a swords and armor fantasy setting. But the rifle is on the battle field rather early on.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby cynthialee » November 7th, 2015, 12:59 pm

I would like to draw your collective attention to this weapon:
http://hyattgunshop.blogspot.com/2012/1 ... -mace.html

Now this type of item would be a great way to go with a gun in a fantasy setting. You get one shot, then close ranks and go melee.
Of course the weapon shown was made for a noble, but surely one could imagine a less ornate version for a Glorantha hero.
Image
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: My first fan supplement

Postby Teldurn » November 7th, 2015, 1:01 pm

Well that's certainly interesting!
War is not the answer...unless the question is, 'What is not the answer?'

Check out Broadsword, a love letter to 90s dungeon crawling board games.


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