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Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » March 14th, 2021, 9:11 pm

Now for the final section under Way of the Warrior - Combat!

HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Combat
Combat is split into two stages: attack and defence.


HeroQuest UK 2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:The attacker rolls his dice once to score as many skulls as he can. The defender then rolls his dice once to cancel the skulls out by rolling shields.


The UK edition of the HQ rulebook is the only edition nice enough to explain how combat is broken up into two stages, and the 2nd edition of the UK rulebook even goes so far as to add an overview of how combat works.

So, for the HQ CERB, we have:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Combat
Combat is split into two stages: attack and defence. The attacker rolls his dice once to score as many skulls as he can. The defender then rolls his dice once to cancel the skulls out by rolling shields.





HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Attacking
To attack a monster or character, you must be in one of four squares: to the side, front, or rear. You cannot attack diagonally.

Example: The Elf may attack from any of the squares where he is shown in the diagram. He may not attack from any of the squares marked "X".


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Action 1 - Attack
As a Hero, you may attack any monster that you are adjacent to. You are adjacent if you are directly to the side, front, or rear of another square. You may, however, only attack once per turn. Your attack strength depends on your attack weapon. The stronger the weapon, the greater the number of Attack Dice used. Some weapons allow you to attack diagonally or from a distance. Most weapons, however, do not.

The Elf is considered adjacent to the monster in any of these four positions.

Important: You may only attack with one weapon at a time.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Under The 2 Monster Actions:
Action 1 - Attack
A monster may attack any Hero that it is adjacent to. However, a monster may only attack once per turn. A monster's attack strength is based on its natural abilities and does not depend on a weapon.


So, we can see that the UK version of the rules opt for simplicity, where as the US version goes for a more comprehensive approach to attacking. Once again, the rules for attacking are repeated twice in the US rulebook, since both Heroes and monsters may take the Attack action. The US version of the rules describes the relationship between weapons and attack strength for Heroes, because in the US version, each Hero is given a starting weapon. This is a marked contrast to the UK edition, where Heroes do not get starting weapons, and their attack strength is listed directly on their Character Boards, causing some confusion when weapons were used, as a Barbarian was listed as rolling three Combat Dice when attacking on his board, but a Barbarian using a Shortsword would TECHNICALLY roll only two Combat Dice when attacking whilst using a Shortsword.

Finally, note that the rules technically allow for Heroes to attack each other, resulting in a much more competitive game.

For the CERB, we will be using the US rules, with some tweaks, as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Attacking
You may attack any monster or character that you are adjacent to. You are adjacent if you are directly to the side, front, or rear of another square. You may, however, only attack once per turn.

Example: The Elf may attack from any of the squares where he is shown in the diagram. He may not attack from any of the squares marked "X".

A Hero's attack strength depends on their attack weapon. The stronger the weapon, the greater the number of Attack Dice used. Some weapons allow a Hero to attack diagonally or from a distance. Most weapons, however, do not.

Important: You may only attack with one weapon at a time.

A monster's attack strength is based on its natural abilities and does not depend on a weapon.


This covers all the rules regarding when and how a character may attack, including any information for weapons.




HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:To attack, you roll a number of the special combat dice (with shields and skulls). The number of dice to roll is shown on the character boards and monster cards against Attack. For each skull you roll, your opponent will lose one Body point unless he can successfully defend himself. If you fail to roll any skulls the attack is wasted and your opponent need not defend.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:How a Hero Attacks
  • As a Hero, you must roll the white combat dice to attack. The number of dice to roll depends on the weapon you are using for the attack. (Check your Character Sheet for your attack strength.) Failure to roll any skulls results in a failed attack.
  • Each skull rolled is considered a hit, resulting in 1 Body Point of damage scored against the monster. If hit, the monster immediately defends by rolling its Defend Dice. If the monster's Body Points reach zero, the monster is considered dead and is removed from the gameboard.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:How a Monster Attacks
  • An attacking monster rolls the number of Attack Dice shown in the Monster Chart on the Information Screen. Failure to roll any skulls results in a failed attack.
  • Each skull rolled is considered a hit, resulting in 1 Body Point of damage scored against the Hero. If hit, the Hero immediately defends by rolling its Defend Dice. If the Hero's Body Points reach zero, the hero is considered dead. (See Dead Heroes.) Important! If the Hero has 1 Body Point remaining, and takes more than 1 hit of damage, his Body Points are still only reduced to zero.


Woah, is the amount of redundancy and repetition getting a little high with the US version of the rules. Not only do we have the repetition of the attacking rules for both Heroes and monsters, but both of these sections essentially repeat how Attack Dice are determined from the previous section. Not to mention that both sections feature a sequence break (Heroes and Monsters get to Defend immediately) before returning to resolve what happens as the result of a successful attack. In comparison, the UK version of the rules for attacking are crisper and cleaner, without a sequence break of any kind, but also do not cover the results of a successful attack until AFTER the section on defending (see below).

To avoid such needless repetition, we will solely use the UK version of the rules for attacking, since we have already covered how attack strength relates to weapons for Heroes and are set values for monsters in the previous section about how and when you can attack. So, we have the CERB as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:To attack, you roll a number of the special combat dice (with shields and skulls). The number of dice to roll is shown on the character boards and monster cards against Attack. For each skull you roll, your opponent will lose one Body point unless he can successfully defend himself. If you fail to roll any skulls the attack is wasted and your opponent need not defend.





HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Defending
To defend against a successful attack, a player rolls the number of special combat dice shown on his character board or monster card against Defend.

The player characters must try to roll white shields, while the monsters need round, black ones. Each shield rolled - provided it is the correct type - cancels one skull rolled by the attacker.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:How a Monster Defends
  • A defending monster rolls the number of Defend Dice shown in the Monster Chart on the Information Screen. Each black shield rolled by the defending monster blocks 1 hit from the attacking Hero.
  • Many monsters are killed with only 1 hit. Some monsters, however, require more than 1 hit. (Refer to the Monster Chart on the Information Screen for a monster's Body Points.) For those monsters requiring more than 1 hit, monster damage is tracked by the use of skull tiles. Zargon, for each hit your monster sustains, you must record the hit by placing a skull tile under the monster figure on the gameboard.
Note: If the monster survives the attack, it cannot attack the Hero back until Zargon's next turn.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:How a Hero Defends
A defending Hero usually rolls 2 Defend dice (less if in a pit or under certain spells, and more after purchasing armour). Each white shield rolled by the defending Hero blocks 1 hit from the attacking monster.


Once again, we see the extensive repetition of the US edition rulebook compared to the more simplistic covering of the rules in the UK edition. However, there are some useful notes that we may wish to include from the US version of the rules, such as how to deal with Monsters with more than 1 Body point (more common in the US than the UK version, where most monsters only ever have 1 Body point), and common circumstances where Heroes might roll more or less Defend Dice.

For the CERB, we will be using the UK version of the rules, with the additional notes from the US version. Note that we will NOT be including the rules for monsters with multiple Body Points, since the effects of combat, including injury and death, are covered below. This gives us:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Defending
To defend against a successful attack, a player rolls the number of special combat dice shown on his character board or monster card against Defend.

A defending Hero usually rolls 2 Defend dice (less if in a pit or under certain spells, and more after purchasing armour).

A defending monster rolls the number of Defend Dice shown in the Monster cards.

The Heroes must try to roll white shields, while the monsters need round, black ones. Each shield rolled - provided it is the correct type - cancels one skull rolled by the attacker.





HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Once the result of the defence has been determined, the player who was attacked must reduce his Body point score of his character sheet by one point for every skull not cancelled by a shield. When a character's Body points reach zero, the character is dead. Since all the monsters have only 1 Body point, they are killed by any roll of a skull which is not cancelled by rolling a black shield*.


*In the 2nd Edition UK Rulebook, this phrase is actually "they are eliminated by any roll of a skull for which they fail to roll a round black shield." We won't be using this, simply because it's not consistent terminology.

HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:If the monster's Body Points reach zero, the monster is considered dead and is removed from the gameboard.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:If the Hero's Body Points reach zero, the hero is considered dead. (See Dead Heroes.) Important! If the Hero has 1 Body Point remaining, and takes more than 1 hit of damage, his Body Points are still only reduced to zero.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Many monsters are killed with only 1 hit. Some monsters, however, require more than 1 hit. (Refer to the Monster Chart on the Information Screen for a monster's Body Points.) For those monsters requiring more than 1 hit, monster damage is tracked by the use of skull tiles. Zargon, for each hit your monster sustains, you must record the hit by placing a skull tile under the monster figure on the gameboard.[/list]
Note: If the monster survives the attack, it cannot attack the Hero back until Zargon's next turn.


Now we get on to the section regarding what happens following a successful attack in combat. For convenience, I have repeated the relevant sections from the US instruction manual here too, as we find them mixed in both the Attacking and Defending sections of the TWO Attack actions listed in the US rules.

Many people still play according to the UK or US rules, and will often convert content from other editions to their favoured version. As such, we will include BOTH versions in the CERB, with relevant notation, as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Once the result of the defence has been determined, the player who was attacked must reduce his Body point score of his character sheet by one point for every skull not cancelled by a shield. When a character's Body points reach zero, the character is dead. Important! If the Hero has 1 Body Point remaining, and takes more than 1 hit of damage, his Body Points are still only reduced to zero.

[UK]: Since all the monsters have only 1 Body point, they are killed by any roll of a skull which is not cancelled by rolling a black shield when defending.

[US]: Many monsters are killed with only 1 hit, and are killed by any roll of a skull which is not cancelled by rolling a black shield when defending. Some monsters, however, require more than 1 hit. (Refer to the Monster Chart on the Information Screen for a monster's Body Points.) For those monsters requiring more than 1 hit, monster damage is tracked by the use of skull tiles. For each hit such a monster sustains, the Evil Wizard must record the hit by placing a skull tile under the monster figure on the gameboard.

Note: If the Hero or monster survives the attack, they cannot attack back until their player's next turn.


That's a good lot of detail for attacking and defending. We will cover what happens to dead Heroes and monsters in the next post, but for now, the combat section for the HQ CERB looks like this:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Combat
Combat is split into two stages: attack and defence. The attacker rolls his dice once to score as many skulls as he can. The defender then rolls his dice once to cancel the skulls out by rolling shields.

Attacking
You may attack any monster or character that you are adjacent to. You are adjacent if you are directly to the side, front, or rear of another square. You may, however, only attack once per turn.

Example: The Elf may attack from any of the squares where he is shown in the diagram. He may not attack from any of the squares marked "X".

A Hero's attack strength depends on their attack weapon. The stronger the weapon, the greater the number of Attack Dice used. Some weapons allow a Hero to attack diagonally or from a distance. Most weapons, however, do not.

Important: You may only attack with one weapon at a time.

A monster's attack strength is based on its natural abilities and does not depend on a weapon.

To attack, you roll a number of the special combat dice (with shields and skulls). The number of dice to roll is shown on the character boards and monster cards against Attack. For each skull you roll, your opponent will lose one Body point unless he can successfully defend himself. If you fail to roll any skulls the attack is wasted and your opponent need not defend.

Defending
To defend against a successful attack, a player rolls the number of special combat dice shown on his character board or monster card against Defend.

A defending Hero usually rolls 2 Defend dice (less if in a pit or under certain spells, and more after purchasing armour).

A defending monster rolls the number of Defend Dice shown in the Monster cards.

The Heroes must try to roll white shields, while the monsters need round, black ones. Each shield rolled - provided it is the correct type - cancels one skull rolled by the attacker.

Once the result of the defence has been determined, the player who was attacked must reduce his Body point score of his character sheet by one point for every skull not cancelled by a shield. When a character's Body points reach zero, the character is dead. Important! If the Hero has 1 Body Point remaining, and takes more than 1 hit of damage, his Body Points are still only reduced to zero.

[UK]: Since all the monsters have only 1 Body point, they are killed by any roll of a skull which is not cancelled by rolling a black shield when defending.

[US]: Many monsters are killed with only 1 hit, and are killed by any roll of a skull which is not cancelled by rolling a black shield when defending. Some monsters, however, require more than 1 hit. (Refer to the Monster Chart on the Information Screen for a monster's Body Points.) For those monsters requiring more than 1 hit, monster damage is tracked by the use of skull tiles. For each hit such a monster sustains, the Evil Wizard must record the hit by placing a skull tile under the monster figure on the gameboard.

Note: If the Hero or monster survives the attack, they cannot attack back until their player's next turn.


Considering combat takes up the meat of most of the HeroQuest mechanics, I would say that we are on a solid foundation for the Combat section right now...
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » March 14th, 2021, 10:52 pm

I wanted to cover death and dying separately from combat, simply because death is not just linked to combat, although it mostly is - especially during the Way of the Warrior.

HeroQuest UK 1st Edition Rules of Play wrote:Dead characters and monsters are immediately removed from play.


Yep, that's it - all the details in the 1st Edition of the UK rules. If you die, you are removed from play. The 2nd Edition of the UK rules expands on this a bit further.

HeroQuest UK 2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Eliminated characters and monsters are immediately removed from play. Any Equipment or gold the eliminated character had may be picked up by another character, who searches for treasure in the room or passage in which the character was eliminated. However, the evil wizard player may also claim the Equipment and gold if, on his next turn he moves a monster into the same room or passage, in which the character was eliminated.

If a monster picks up the possessions of the eliminated character they are removed from the game, the monster may not use either the Equipment or the gold.


HeroQuest US Instruction Manual wrote:Dead Heroes
As a Hero, you die when your Body Points are reduced to zero, and you do not have a Healing Spell or Healing Potion to save yourself.

What Happens to a Dead Hero?
As a Hero, if you die, you are out of the game for the rest of that Quest. You may, however, rename your Hero and play him as a new character in the next Quest. Armour, weapons, and treasures that belonged to you prior to death can be picked up by any other Hero in the room with you.

Warning! If there are no other Heroes in the room or corridor with you when you die, any monster in the room or corridor with you will claim your possessions. It may not, however, use them. They are removed from the game.


So, but the 2nd Edition UK rules and the US rules allow for a dead Hero's possessions to be recovered if another Hero is in the same room. In the UK rules, this requires that the Hero searches for treasure, but is automatic in the US rules. If not recovered, the possessions are lost and removed from the game. Note that the requirement to search for treasure in the UK rules means that if a monster remains in the room after defeating a hero, they must be dealt with first, before any other Hero can attempt to claim the defeated Hero's possessions, as you cannot search for treasure during combat.. In the US, a fallen Hero's possessions CAN be recovered during combat, and doesn't take an action.

For the CERB, we will include BOTH rules options, as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Dead Heroes
Characters and monsters are killed when their Body Points are reduced to zero. Dead or eliminated characters and monsters are immediately removed from play, remaining out of the game for the rest of that Quest.

What Happens to a Dead Hero's Possessions?
[UK] Any Equipment or gold the dead character had may be picked up by another character, who searches for treasure in the room or passage in which the character was killed. However, the evil wizard player may also claim the Equipment and gold if, on his next turn he moves a monster into the same room or passage, in which the character was killed. If a monster picks up the possessions of the killed character they are removed from the game, the monster may not use either the Equipment or the gold.

[US] Armour, weapons, and treasures that belonged to you prior to death can be picked up by any other Hero in the room with you. Warning! If there are no other Heroes in the room or corridor with you when you die, any monster in the room or corridor with you will claim your possessions. It may not, however, use them. They are removed from the game.





HeroQuest US Instruction Manual wrote:How a Hero Escapes Death
As a Hero, if your Body Points have been reduced to zero, there are two situations where you can save yourself:
  1. If you have a Healing Potion in your possession, you can immediately drink it. The potion will instantly raise your Body Points above zero, restoring you to life.
  2. If you are a spellcaster with a Healing Spell, and you have not already performed an action on your turn, you can be healed by casting the spell on yourself.

Important! After your Body Points have been reduced to zero, you can never be saved by a fellow Hero's spell or potion. It will be too late. You will have died by the time it is your fellow Hero's turn - the only time when he can cast a spell or give you a potion.


The US version of HQ allows for Heroes to save themselves if they are reduced to zero Body Points. The UK version does not have this rule. We will include this in the CERB as a US only rule (Easy mode on!) as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:[US] How a Hero Escapes Death
As a Hero, if your Body Points have been reduced to zero, there are two situations where you can save yourself:
  • If you have a Healing Potion in your possession, you can immediately drink it. The potion will instantly raise your Body Points above zero, restoring you to life.
  • If you are a spellcaster with a Healing Spell, and you have not already performed an action on your turn, you can be healed by casting the spell on yourself.
Important! After your Body Points have been reduced to zero, you can never be saved by a fellow Hero's spell or potion. It will be too late. You will have died by the time it is your fellow Hero's turn - the only time when he can cast a spell or give you a potion.





This gives us a small section about death and dying as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Dead Heroes
Characters and monsters are killed when their Body Points are reduced to zero. Dead or eliminated characters and monsters are immediately removed from play, remaining out of the game for the rest of that Quest.

What Happens to a Dead Hero's Possessions?
[UK] Any Equipment or gold the dead character had may be picked up by another character, who searches for treasure in the room or passage in which the character was killed. However, the evil wizard player may also claim the Equipment and gold if, on his next turn he moves a monster into the same room or passage, in which the character was killed. If a monster picks up the possessions of the killed character they are removed from the game, the monster may not use either the Equipment or the gold.

[US] Armour, weapons, and treasures that belonged to you prior to death can be picked up by any other Hero in the room with you. Warning! If there are no other Heroes in the room or corridor with you when you die, any monster in the room or corridor with you will claim your possessions. It may not, however, use them. They are removed from the game.

[US] How a Hero Escapes Death
As a Hero, if your Body Points have been reduced to zero, there are two situations where you can save yourself:

  • If you have a Healing Potion in your possession, you can immediately drink it. The potion will instantly raise your Body Points above zero, restoring you to life.
  • If you are a spellcaster with a Healing Spell, and you have not already performed an action on your turn, you can be healed by casting the spell on yourself.

Important! After your Body Points have been reduced to zero, you can never be saved by a fellow Hero's spell or potion. It will be too late. You will have died by the time it is your fellow Hero's turn - the only time when he can cast a spell or give you a potion.
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » March 20th, 2021, 3:08 am

With the Way of the Warrior done, it's time to move on with Way of the Wizard - a shortish section that covers the use of Magic in HQ. It has two main sections - Choosing Spells and Casting Spells.

It's worth noting right now that the spellcasting system in HQ is fairly unique, and a signature of the game. Both AHQ and WHQ present differing alternative magic systems, and part of the challenge of RandoQuest will be to try and unify the various diverse elements of these individual magic systems into a cohesive whole, which will most likely be easier said than done. With this in mind, however, I do like the tactile elements of HQ magic, as well as the somewhat Vancian nature of choosing and casting spells, so going forwards, it's worth noting that we will be looking to shape AHQ and WHQ magic to be more like HQ, and NOT the other way around.

HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Choosing Spells
Sort the 12 spell cards into their four sets. Each set corresponds to a different aspect of magical energy: Earth magic; Water magic; Air magic; and Fire magic.

There are three spell cards in each set. At the start of each game, the Wizard chooses three sets of spells (9 cards), and the Elf chooses one set (3 cards). The Wizard chooses one set first, then the Elf chooses his set, and finally the Wizard takes the remaining two sets.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Hero Spell Cards
There are four groups of Hero spells, each group representing one of the 4 natural elements - Air, Fire, Water, Earth. Each spell group contains 3 individual spells. The spell groups are divided between the Wizard and the Elf.

Dividing The Spells
Direct the Hero players to divide the Hero spells. The Wizard must first choose one of the four spell groups. Next, the Elf must choose one spell group from the three that remain. Finally, the two remaining spell groups become the possessions of the Wizard. A spell and its effects are explained in detail on its corresponding spell card.

Suggestion: If this is the player's first Quest, the Wizard should take the Fire spells, the Elf should take the Earth spells, and the remaining spells should go to the Wizard.


Fairly simple, yet comprehensive. I like how the US edition includes a suggested method of dividing the spells (though, more often than not in my games, the Elf takes the Water spells, not the Earth spells).

It's also interesting how the UK edition states the four sets of spells represent different types of magical energy, but that the US version is the only one that states that each groups represents one of the four natural elements, thus cementing the idea that there are ONLY four types of magic in the US edition.

Most people will recognise the four classical elements of Air, Earth, Fire, and Water as the basis for most elemental magic, but it's worth noting that the Warhammer World was already noted to have eight winds of magic - Bright, Light, Celestial, Gold, Jade, Amber, Amethyst, and Grey magic. AHQ would release with the Wizard having access to Bright magic (fire magic) a month after the HQ UK release. Up until this point, whilst WFRP did recognise elementalism as a branch of magic, elemental specialisms weren't actually considered, and it's uncertain whether or not any such elemental specialisms would have appeared in WFRP, since the promised Realms of Sorcery supplement would not see print until the Hogshead Publishing rerelease of WFRP 1st Edition in the mid 90's.

Given the diversity of magic within HQ, thanks to WOM and other EPs, as well as the diversity of magic within the Warhammer World itself, it's probably best to border on the side of ambiguity here, rather than taking the US edition's approach of only four types of natural magic. That's before we even get to issues with different magical systems in AHQ and WHQ...

So, for the HQ CERB, we have the following:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Choosing Spells
Sort the 12 spell cards into their four sets. Each set corresponds to a different aspect of magical energy: Earth magic; Water magic; Air magic; and Fire magic. There are three spell cards in each set.

At the start of each game, the Wizard chooses three sets of spells (9 cards), and the Elf chooses one set (3 cards). The Wizard chooses one set first, then the Elf chooses his set, and finally the Wizard takes the remaining two sets. A spell and its effects are explained in detail on its corresponding spell card.

Suggestion: If this is the player's first Quest, the Wizard should take the Fire spells, the Elf should take the Earth spells, and the remaining spells should go to the Wizard.
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book (HQ CERB)
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » March 23rd, 2021, 12:23 pm

Okay, on to casting spells (and line of sight rules)...

HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Casting Spells
When it is their turn, the Wizard and Elf characters have the option of casting a spell instead of attacking. A spell may be cast before or after moving. You cannot use part of your move, cast a spell and then move again.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Action 2 - Cast a Spells (Elf and Wizard Only)
As the Elf or the Wizard, you may cast a spell instead of attacking. You may cast a spell at anything you can "see." Important: You may only cast a spell on your turn.


Not the most groundbreaking revelations there, aside from the fact that casting a spell is done instead of attacking, and cannot be done between movement.

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Casting Spells
When it is their turn, the Wizard and Elf characters have the option of casting a spell instead of attacking. A spell may be cast before or after moving. You cannot use part of your move, cast a spell and then move again.





HeroQuest UK 1st Edition Rules of Play wrote:Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Models in the same room as the spell-caster are always visible. Models in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line from the spell-caster to the target. If the line passes through another model, through a wall, or through a closed door, then the target model is not visible.


HeroQuest UK 2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:"SEE"
For the Elf or Wizard to cast a spell, the target must be visible. Heroes and monsters are only visible if an unobstructed straight line can be traced from the spellcaster to the target.

A Good Rule of Thumb: Draw an invisible straight line between the centre of the square the spellcaster is on and the centre of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, Hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge. The following diagram shows an example of what is visible.


Interestingly, the UK rules state that models in the same room as the caster are ALWAYS visible, and line of sight rules don't apply between models in the same room. The rule was dropped for the US edition. The US edition is also clear on how the line needs to be drawn, and what happens if the line touches a corner or wall edge. It's also curious to see that the UK rules went from being "models" to "miniatures", but the US takes a more roleplaying approach, referring to "targets."

For the HQ CERB, we will go with the US rules, with the UK rule of models in the same room ALWAYS being visible as a house rule. So, we have something like this:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster.

[UK] Targets in the same room are always visible.

Targets in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the square the spellcaster is on, and the centre of the square the target is on. If the line passes through a wall, a closed door, or another Hero or monster, then the target is not visible. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, Hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge.





To finish off...

HeroQuest UK 1st Edition Rules of Play wrote:If a player character tries to cast a spell at a model which is not visible to the caster, the spell has no effect and is wasted. The spell-caster may always cast a spell on himself. Each spell may be cast just once during the course of each Quest. Once cast (or wasted), the spell card is discarded and cannot be used again in that game.


HeroQuest UK 2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:The spell-caster may always cast a spell on himself. Each spell may be cast just once during the course of each quest. Once cast, the spell card is discarded.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:As the Elf or the Wizard, you may cast a spell on yourself, another Hero, or on a monster. Once a spell is cast, the spell card is discarded for the remainder of the Quest. Each spell may be cast only once per Quest. Use them wisely!

Note: A spell and its effects are explained in detail on it's corresponding spell card.


It's interesting to note that in the UK 1st Edition, you can "waste" spells by casting them on targets that aren't actually visible. The rule was dropped for the US and UK 2nd Edition rules. I like how the US version actually states that the details for the spells are on the spell cards.

so, for the CERB, we get:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:The spell-caster may cast a spell on themselves, another Hero, or on a monster. Each spell may be cast only once per Quest. Once a spell is cast, the spell card is discarded for the remainder of the Quest. Use them wisely!

Note: A spell and its effects are explained in detail on it's corresponding spell card.





Putting this all together, we get:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Casting Spells
When it is their turn, the Wizard and Elf characters have the option of casting a spell instead of attacking. A spell may be cast before or after moving. You cannot use part of your move, cast a spell and then move again.

Each spell may be cast only once per Quest. Once a spell is cast, the spell card is discarded for the remainder of the Quest. Use them wisely!

The spell-caster may always cast a spell on themselves. Spells can also be cast at other monsters or Heroes provided they are visible to the spell-caster.

Targets are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the square the spellcaster is on, and the centre of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, Hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge. If the line passes through a wall, a closed door, or another Hero or monster, then the target is not visible.

[UK] Targets in the same room are always visible.

Note: A spell and its effects are explained in detail on it's corresponding spell card.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby iKarith » March 23rd, 2021, 5:59 pm

Davane wrote:So can I. More than that, I can see a potential market for 3rd party products and POD distribution, using the argument that the costs go towards the materials, time, and labour for creating a derivative product. Technically, a derivative product is not a copy, and thus doesn't count as copyright, and as long as it is sufficiently different from source and doesn't use branding of the original, doesn't need a license either. That's why there's so many Kickstarter games for Dungeon Crawlers these days...


I'll keep this post limited to the legal side of things, not to rain on the parade or anything, but just to provide awareness. I'm a very interested, but I happen to know a fair bit about Intellectual Property law in the United States, Copyright in particular, and the Berne Convention standards that govern most of the developed world. Not actually a lawyer, so I cannot offer legal advice. But I can "um, actually" a few points that should ensure Hasbro and Games Workshop don't start sending scary letters to anyone.

To take a Copyrighted work and base another work upon it does concern Copyright law. Remember that at some point the D20 OGL was released permitting Pathfinder to exist—the reason that was needed was that people were already trying to make Dungeons-and-Dragons-compatible game modules while carefully trying to tiptoe around TSR's/WotC's/Hasbro's Copyrights and Trademarks. Mostly some careful dancing could avoid violating Trademarks, but depending on how much detail was included, the Copyright was a problem too.

This was always kind of a problem more or less, but the issue came to a head legally speaking a couple of times. One of them was over a manual with all the rules for D&D Sex, including an entire alphabet of sexualities, turn-ons, and turn-offs. (Dungeons of a different sort, odds of STDs, roll to determine how good this randomly generated whore is going to be at particular skills in the bedroom, etc… Not kidding, I've seen this thing.)

Anyway, the OGL allowed D&D's core rules to be available under terms that would permit anyone to modify them, adapt them, and add to them, including commercially. It established very clear and consistent boundaries: You may not use the D&D Trademarks. This content you can use/adapt/modify with attribution. Anything not part of this generic D20 OGL stuff is ours and you can't touch it.

"What's to stop someone from publishing a whole new set of rules without giving Hasbro a cent?" "Nothing, if they invent their own settings, worlds, and content outside of what the OGL D20 content provides…" And so Paizo did.

If that sounds like me saying you can't do what you're doing … it's not. Hasbro has to enforce the HeroQuest trademark they'd have doubtless reclaimed for commercial use to republish this. It's not an option; use it (and defend it) or lose it. So you can't call it HeroQuest—but you didn't anyway. And you'd need to acknowledge the Trademark and its owner to be properly correct, and probably disclaim their lack of involvement or responsibility for anything related to it.

I said your rules are likely to be covered by Hasbro's Copyright. Thing is, they can zealously defend their Copyright or not, as they choose. And! They've got a lot of history as a company of leaving non-commercial fan projects alone. So you're probably fine with HeroQuest mechanics such as depicting a HeroQuest board, combat dice, using Quest icons, etc. Whatever you needed, really. Not much chance of objection from Hasbro. You're effectively saying, "Buy their game and play with this rule set instead". I mean, okay, sell more copies of the game for them, sure! They could technically call you on a Copyright violation—but it would be STUPID of them to do it, and unless it started being a commercial product … they (probably) won't.

They're not likely to get upset over donations and tips, just pay-for-product.

Games Workshop is a little more litigious in this respect, as some folks discovered related to Space Hulk, however they aren't likely to care about this either. First, the mechanics you identify as AHQ and WHQ's forté are not unique to those games. In fact there's a bunch of games these days that have random map, cave, dungeon, etc. generation using a variety of mechanisms. If you want to have printable tiles, you can even include a variant with AHQ-style puzzle interconnects and specify what they're for. They don't own the trademark anymore so attribution is a matter of convention in the US. In the EU, such a thing would be governed by Moral Rights (which we don't explicitly have as a legal concept in the United States.)

In particular, if you're using d6 to generate your random dungeons, you can't even effectively use AHQ's d12 generation system, so you won't be infringing upon its Copyright by creating one because you like that AHQ (and other games) have this kind of mechanic.

You run into specific problems if you want to use Skaven by name since they're not part of any (non-Advanced) HeroQuest release. Possibly you shouldn't refer to Fimir or Chaos Warriors by name since those are explicitly part of the Warhammer lore—although how the hell MB wound up using Fimir and not … anything else … I couldn't tell you! Hey, let's use the species that kidnaps women and rapes them to procreate IN A KID'S GAME… Note GW has basically phased Fimir out of the Warhammer universe in general because that's a recipe waiting for someone screaming the magic words "Problematic!" and a whole bunch of others that create a much bigger social quagmire than any legal one created by Copyright law.

I can only guess Fimir were picked because "Oh those lizard things look mean." "Ohh yeah, they are mean all right. Individually pretty tough, too. And you definitely don't want to run into them in packs!" "Great, ship it!" I mean, I presume that's how it happened.

So anyway, it shouldn't be a problem. If you wanted to make something commercial, well, you'd have to take a lot more steps to make it not affiliated with HeroQuest and suitable for whatever minis and tiles you might already own, as well as these others we're providing… You could use combat dice, but not HQ's combat dice. (Although for a print-and-play, you'd wind up using "…roll 4, 5, 6 for successful attacks, roll 5, 6 for defense…" kind of things in that case.

I actually saw one commercially printed game use standard pipped d6 with a success base of 4, 5, 6 for attacks, 2, 3 for heroes' defense, and 1 for monster defense. Hmm, wonder where they got the idea for that? (They did mix it up a bit, but I'd argue the roll high mechanic would've been simpler.)

I do want to comment about some of the other stuff, but … don't have time just now.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Anderas » March 23rd, 2021, 6:03 pm

Bear with me, I am answering to your first post only right now, as I was not yet able to ingest all the content available in this posting.

Heroquest is more than just card decks, AHQ is more than random table rolls and WHQ is more than card deck based adventuring.
Warhammer quest is special because it allows you to travel on a warhammer world map to quest locations which differ by location. Yes I admit to get the full fun you have to buy expansions. But then, you can travel there and encounter Skaven instead of Orcs. This was giving me a feeling for the world, maybe that's just me, but this feeling is what I search.

What I missed most in Warhammer quest was, that it wasn't telling a story the way Heroquest did. The quests in Heroquests are story-based and not random, that's true. True is too, that there exist between 500 to 1000 fan made quests around the net, so what you will not get is bored, at least if you pick the better ones.

The advantage of Heroquest and Warhammer quest is that you have everything you need on the card on your hand. There is very little in the way of rules, at least in HQ. The book of WHQ was a little bigger, too big already for my taste. You have a storyline. You have beautiful game material. Even today, you will have difficulties showing me a game that has full-colored furniture inside. Either they are printed on the board, or they are grey plastic, or they are cardboard tokens today.

Now there is a catch. I hate. Hate. Really hate reading the rule book during the game. If the rules demand that I roll on table 5 on page 55, what you do is you open the rule book, search the table, roll on it, and in worst case you search what that fat printed word meant in the rules section of that same book. So if you want to get me to roll on a table, it is better printed on the back of the book, automatically rolled-on in an ingame phone app, or printed on a game card that I have in my hand at that very moment. Or if you don't mind, you roll for me - so if the tables are for the game master only, I can use that game as player. Also, I am a fast reader, so if you force me to use the table myself, I will read through every result and then have no surprise left... which is sad.

Cards on the other hand have the drawback that you have to sort them before starting to play. Heroquest has the Treasure Deck, the Equipment, the Spells, the Artifacts, the Monsters. I've added lots of treasure, lots of spells, lots of equipments, potions and a temple deck. It's getting too much already for my taste! I recently played some card based dungeon crawlers with some friends, well, last summer... that game hat around 600 cards. It was a mess on the table. Too much of everything!

So, now out of the negativity, into the positive part.
Tables can repeat a lot of things. I think, they are best served as app. Generating a table roll app is not expensive at all, takes the sting out of the table, and best is, you can exchange parts or all the table for every game so the repeat-effect is not as bad.

Cards then can be given to people. I give you this card. Now I take away this card from you. We are all quite ownership-centered, so receiving and holding a card in your hand feels good. Having to give it away feels bad. It is a completely different thing than noting something on your hero sheet and scrubbing int away again later. The Game-mechanic-effect is the same, but the feeling effect is completely different!


In the end, if properly handled , both systems have their right to exist and can be used. Don't use too many tables, don't use references for searching on a different page in tables, don't use tables that ask for rolling on tables, or you lose everyone except the strongest nerd.
Don't use too many cards, the game table will be a mess.


In the end,
under the line,
in the sum,
right at the bottom,

Heroquest is great because of the Missions. They are diverse, interesting, the quest notes build some delicate traps you've never seen before. What is good is not the system - you could play with the Warhammer System, with the Risk army fight system, with whatever you like. What is great are the story line in each mission and the quest notes, which make for a unique experience. Nearly no healing is needed, which makes for a fast game play and is very positive in my perception.

Warhammer Quest is great because the fight system gives you enough to wrap your head around and to make for some interesting mechanics. It is also great because you never know if you survive or not the next room, so it keeps the suspense. It's greatest weakness is the randomness of everything - what is it that you experience there? It's not a story, right? The random room mechanics, due to the randomness, after a few quest you have seen them all, and then it starts to be repeating.

Give me a Heroquest with interesting missions. Missions that are different each time, altered by quest notes which go the extra mile and provide an as-per-yet-never-seen surprise in every single quest. Combine that with a multi-faceted fight system like Warhammer Quest (but not exaggerated like D&D) and a healing system like Heroquest (basically, no healing favoring fast gameplay). I'm in. I would pay 60 or 80 or 100 bucks for your game when you put it on Kickstarter, even if I have a cupboard full of games already.

Remove the storyline, put everything in a d66 or worse in a d6 table which repeats latest after three games. Then I'm probably out. Those systems are great if one person plays against themselves or for computer-vs-person games, where you have no game master. But the missing storyline always leaves me with the feeling "and if I turn around? What then? No difference?". And that's a corrosive process which eats up my motivation and doesn't let me open the game box a second time.

I will take an hour some of the next few days and read your rules proposals.


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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » March 24th, 2021, 7:27 am

Thanks for the feedback Anderas. Like I said, this isn't intended as some sort of commercial project at this point, rather it's just a mental exercise allowing me to brush up on my design and layout skills.

I agree that HQ is about more than just card decks, AHQ is about more than just tables, and WHQ was more about deck-based dungeons. However, these are the USP of each of these games, and where they truly excelled.

At the moment, I am focusing on a deep dive of the UK and US editions of the HQ rules, so I can create a Combined English Edition of the HQ rules, upon which I can then build a HQ compendium of rules. I intend to do the same with HQ and WHQ as well. Then finally, I will combine them into what is currently affectionately titled RandoQuest.

Whilst I can see a market for this if people are interested, I am not actually attempting to enter that market with this project right now. This will probably remain a fan project, and if people like it, they can have a copy.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby iKarith » March 24th, 2021, 5:19 pm

Kurgan wrote:New print and play rules and custom content is what has fueled the inn for decades. A generic freeware version of HeroQuest with AHQ and WHQ sound-alike rules, hmm... that would certainly open it up rather than just being a custom mod for elite collectors. Then again a community of small indie gamers might be pretty small too (unless it really catches on).

For my gaming circle (including my family) one of the most fun things is to be the bad guy GM. Lots of desire for option of a GM-less game though, so I guess there's that.



This interests me a great deal. I'm on record saying that whatever Hasbro publishes under the HeroQuest name, I'm buying it, no matter what a mess they make of the lore, rules, quest books, whatever I really don't care—I'm in it for the game pieces and encouraging them to support and make more of those, even if they screw up everything else. If they manage to NOT screw up everything else, so much the better.

But I'd be up for an open rule set for building games around the "roll for number of successes" mechanic. I could just say "combat dice" there, but it starts to get a little weird when your chance of success is very likely has you being told "roll two combat dice, succeeding on a skulls and black shields". Wat. At that point it's almost easier to say "roll 2d6, succeed on 3+". The mechanic doesn't change just because you switched to numeric dice, you're still counting the number of successes you have against the number of successes they have.


Davane wrote:The tactile edge of cards cannot be understated, and it's worth noting that both HQ and WHQ used cards for more than just random generation - cards are useful for keeping track of things too. AHQ lacked that level to tactile goodness, but it did have Dungeon Counters for the GM, and the modular dungeon pieces were great to put together...


I went and looked at the mechanics of the modern D&D games (descendents of Castle Ravenloft) because I know that they do this. I think they do it in a way I don't like much, if I'm honest, but there's no reason the cards and chits could not be done better. There's something about either having body/mind point chits and losing them or being given a wound that now belongs to you until healed. And likewise to having a the treasures you find and equipment you carry being yours, physically in front of you. If a weapon breaks, you hand over the card. If your you cast a spell, you remove it from play, etc.

In the Old World thread where the D&D comparison came up, I said that losing the character sheet, the ability to name your character, and to keep track of their stats … giving that up would cost HeroQuest a lot of its charm, and I meant that. But during a quest, not having to touch your character sheet has a lot of advantages.

Including the advantage that if the game has to be interrupted (I'm thinking high school lunch periods here—not because I've got one of these to contend with anymore, but because adulting sometimes makes you feel like you're trying to cram your leisure time into the 20 minutes you have while you're eating), you take your character's current state and put it in an envelope with your character sheet, the EW packs cards yet to be drawn and puts them in a card box separately from the cards discarded, and someone takes a couple of quick board snapshots on their phone. Your game saved. :D

A thought: To avoid the crunch associated with e.g. finding a treasure card, you find a card that gives you general guidelines: You found a small gem! That's all you know about it. It's probably worth 35-50 gold, but you don't know. And you won't know until you get out of the Quest and take it to be appraised (crunch crunch. Keeps the turns moving fast.

cornixt wrote:[… contributes his Two Page Rules to the discussion …]

The Why

I hope to explain why I created this. First, it was just tidying up HeroQuest rules. A lot of it was untidy, such as the equipment rules being unfinished – players could carry as much stuff as they liked, instantly switching from a powerful sword to a powerful bow. There was a lack of variety when it came to player types and equipment range. Mind points seemed as important as Body points, but were actually almost never used in the game. Since the game was out of print and I didn’t have a copy, I had to get together everything in the game from various places in order to play – the rules and quests were on the Hasbro website in pdf form, so I printed them out. I created tiles of the rooms instead of making a board, so I could have a much wider variety of quests and use them for other games. I constructed papercraft furniture. The models I had for the heroes didn’t quite fit the design, and there were obvious problems with the originals anyway. I managed to gather enough equivalents for the monsters from Warhammer armies and Blood Bowl teams.


Some of the things you've changed make a lot of sense. I'll say that you'd be shocked how many weapons an adventurer can actually carry and still fight effectively. Shad Brooks demonstrated this on his Shadiversity YouTube channel, actually. The issue isn't carrying the weapons, it's switching them in the context of combat that's a bit dodgy. Say for example that I've got an arming sword (which encompasses "short sword" and "longsword" really, but … single handed.) Even if I haven't got a shield or a parrying dagger in my off hand, watch someone who's got one of these things sheathe the thing. They've got to take the scabbard one hand, bring the flat of the blade's tip down to all but rest upon their hand, and finagle the two until they can noisily clatter the thing in. And then they've got to take their bow off their back, get it into their hand properly, draw an arrow from their quiver (because they won't have prepared any just sticking up out of the ground as they would defending a position), nock it, draw something between a 40 and 120lb bow (the latter requiring about three or four muscle movement groups), adjust for distance and angle based upon their skill and practice, aim, and loose.

If we operate on the D&D assumption that a square is five feet, you're not going to do that in the time it takes an angry whatever to close 50 feet of distance no matter how slow their move is. You might be able to drop the sword clattering to the stone beneath your feet, pull a short bow, and loose the arrow right as your foe is about to smash your bow with something big and smashy as the arrow severs something important inside his skull.

I agree the equipment rules felt unfinished. Mind points were unfinished for sure. And I think searching feels unfinished too. The whole point of searching for traps and secrets is that you might not find them.let alone be able operate them. The barbarian might (or not) find the secret door. What're the odds he is going to locate the trigger to open it except by pure chance? And even unawares, there's some chance you might escape some or even all of the harm of a trap by reflex the moment you trip it. It's usually fairly easy to avoid triggering many traps once discovered, provided you don't try to access what they protect.

A chest with a poisoned needle in its reinforce lock can only rreally harm you if you try fiddling with the lock. Why not pick up the chest and smash it? (Because the rules aren't written that way!) Well, maybe you could, but if what's in the chest turns out to have been breakable, it's broken.


whitebeard wrote:[Speaking to cormixt] This is nice. From the "Actions" section I was initially confused that the characters are also "creatures".

In addressing your "Why" section (gathering all of the pieces is difficult), I would argue that what is really needed is an "open license" set of rules, quests, board, furniture, quest builder (icons etc.), card decks, dice design, … This way anybody can print them (commercially or hobbyists) and any vendor who wants to can offer a starter pack. You only need a minis manufacturer (Zealot) and a print shop. Reaper licenses "Pathfinder" and others perhaps they would consider pulling together a collection from their Bones line and selling a starter pack as well? "QuestHeroes" anyone?

Anyway. From what I read, this is a really good starting point. I think you need another iteration in keeping things simple though. completely pre-made characters on cards is the way to go… human warrior, human mage, human priest, human paladin, human rogue, elf, dwarf, and halfling should be plenty.


A question on things like furniture… How much skill/material do we want to assume?

Like, are we talking "Print this out on light cardstock and score your folds before your cuts. If you cut through, put a piece of scotch tape on the back side. Then cut out the shape, fold and glue your rectangular object. Tada, you have a tomb. Or a table. Or anything, because that's the level of skill we assume you have." Or are we talking, "Pick up a couple small metal L brackets and some medium binder clips. Now pick up a couple of pieces of styrene from a hobby shop, PVC solvent from your hardware store, a dropper bottle with dispensing needle, a file, and some emery boards… WE'RE GONNA MAKE A THRONE!"

I mean, if we have some artists willing to contribute a little time, the answer might be "yes!", but I'd suggest we aim somewhere in between. For example, if we've got a good way to cut round arches (or decide rectangular is acceptable), it might be a great suggestion to print open door card for standees on sticker stock, apply that to PETG, and all you've gotta do is match up your two opposite sides to get "open" doorways that are sturdier than the original because they're plastic, but not actually open. Similarly styled but different construction gives you open asset pieces that suit your talent and resources.

Obviously if everyone had 3D printers, it'd be real easy. Hey, here's some generic room tiles for 100x100, 100x200, and 50x100mm blanks. Print on light cardstock and spray adhesive to chipboard blanks of those sizes that are all pretty easy to find. Then, print this pack of doors and this pack of trap tiles. Also while you're at it, why not print these custom dice too if your printer's high enough resolution.

It is kinda important to me that this be as accessible to people as possible. Naturally I mean that in multiple ways. Certainly I mean it should be something any player can use, but I've also had a mind with the little project I've been working on that the result would have, for example, a checkbox up in the corner. Click it and the fonts go from HQ fonts with all the fancy scripts to pretty normal web fonts. I suspect my motive there is somewhat transparent. :D


This one's gotten WAY long enough, I'll stop here.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby iKarith » March 24th, 2021, 8:27 pm

Shadzar wrote:Already had that idea and working on it since 2016


I think you may note that a lot of people have had this idea, or one like it, or something sort of similar to it, or some variant of it, dating back to probably 1991 when these games were new.

Davane, I hope you won't take this post as me trying to rain (or something else) on your parade, because Shadzar had this notion in 2016, a few of us had this idea in 2012-2013 or so … You get the idea. And here in 2021, I started working on my own variation of the same notion without even considering that someone else was doing the very same thing with different goals in mind. And sho nuff, when I started talking about what I was working on, it was what I was gonna do and what I intended to accomplish.

Whenever someone proposes something like this, I suspect you'll also find, inevitably, that lots of people express interest in what they'd like to see or do, but the person presenting the idea already has what they have in mind at least partly underway, they know what they want to do, they know what they don't want to do, and they're not interested in what anyone else does or doesn't want. And … they insist on doing it themselves. It's less, "hey, I have this idea, it'd be really cool if we did this cool thing," and more, "let me tell you why this thing I am doing is going to be so great and why you're all gonna love it when I'm finished with it!"

My own project did not intend to merge the best of HeroQuest, Advanced HeroQuest, Warhammer Quest, and maybe the D&D games or anything else. I intended to create a framework for others to do that, or not. I still think the project I began a couple weeks ago has merit, but in the light of this thread, I think it has merit only if I stop before I invent another square freakin' wheel.

I see cormixt has already distilled HQ's rules (more or less) into a very concise format. He's already started tweaking them, of course, and again I like some of what I see and I don't like some of it. But the fact that he did this—distilling the mechanics down to something relatively devoid of WH/HQ contextual setting and the kind of format he used … that's a much better target.

I _had_ been going through the rules, version by version, turning each one into accurate as possible text and HTML versions of the originals. Why, given that I intend to veer away from them later? Well, to make versions of the originals anyone could just download, of course! Yeah, but again, why? Phoenix already did that better than I'm going to for the US rules. Do I want to do the same with both editions of the UK rules as a byproduct of shredding all three down to their essence?

… well, yeah. Yeah, I did. But my plan to do that is dumb.

So instead, let me start breaking this cycle by suggesting that I take a cue from cormixt's outline and go back and produce something like he's got for for the three editions of HeroQuest. (If someone's Japanese is good, I understand they have some additions that we might want to discuss, even if it's just to discard them? We don't even have scans for me to try to feed to the evil empire's translate engine.

If y'all want it, I'll bring back two-page-style distillations of the existing HQ variants for comparison and we can see together what we think about any of it.

There was some discussion before about having everything people might want to add fit into the core rules … but it wouldn't be much of an open game system if it was dependent upon that. Maybe we can agree on a convention for communicating what gets changed by people's variants so we can know at a glance if it's gonna work for us or not? Spitballing.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby cornixt » March 25th, 2021, 9:37 am

All this talk about my two-page rules had made me realise that I haven't uploaded my most recent version (no line-of-sight rules!). It seems that every time I upload new ones I spend more time redoing it afterwards before losing interest or getting too busy with other things again.

I've been on this site for long enough and seen enough "improvements" to make a definitive version of HQ rules to know that any attempt is not going to take hold for more than a handful of other people. We all have different ideas about what we want in the game and every other version falls short in some ways. So it becomes just another new set of rules. There's nothing wrong with that, especially if it is useful to you, but I think xkcd said it best:

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