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Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 3:57am

Shadzar wrote:
Davane wrote:The click-baity title is because of what I perceive to be the biggest flaw in HQ - issues regarding replay-ability and randomness. In it's own right, HQ is a great game, but once you have exhausted all the quest packs and so forth, unless you are in to designing your own quests, the game itself offers no real replay-ability.


Already had that idea and working on it since 2016

there would be 16 boards selected at a 4d4 roll, and each board would orient differently and another d4 roll. The first 3 boards would always be the same board, but a d4 roll to determine which way they faced.

This would allow players to get trapped at dead-ends and have to backtrack, and each player could go different directions or stay together. treasure and monsters would also be random based on a chart that goes with each board. so while Board 12 might always have the same types of monsters living on it, they werent always in the same places, and the board itself wouldnt always be after a set pattern of other boards.

I got the idea form original Diablo dungeon randomization and was going based on that.

Obviously you could go as many deep as you wanted until you found the "goal" which could also be randomized after the 3rd board/levl.

In case of backtracking, the GM would need to track placement of everything from the start as you go to be able to swap out boards and put them back to ascned the levels again to find the right route to whatever the goal was.

It stalled out for lack of art assets to use.


Interesting idea there. Modularisation is quite popular in procedural generation, and many dungeon crawlers (both video and tabletop) use them for set pieces. It's been popular since the 80's and the idea of geomorphs (maps you could use in various combinations and rotate to make random dungeons). You might want to check out some of the early D&D geomorphs if your idea has stalled because of a lack of map assets to use.

The D&D adventure game uses square board tiles to create a dungeon "stack", treating the tiles themselves as cards. This means that mechanically, it's not that different to dungeon generation in WHQ, which uses cards representing each dungeon tile to make a dungeon deck.

In AHQ, because of the random nature of generated dungeons, one player would be designated as the Expedition Mapper, and be responsible for mapping the dungeon as it was explored, and noting down what was where. Heroes actually had a limit to the amount of gold they could carry in AHQ, so it was often the case that gold was left behind to be picked up later, often in a following expedition, so this was an incentive to record everything accurately, as unrecorded treasure was often lost. Since monsters replenished in Lairs and Quest Rooms between expeditions if the room was left empty, players also had an incentive to record where monsters were left (so they didn't refresh), especially if it was a relatively easy encounter. Since a player was the designated mapper, recording monsters and treasure, it was reasonable that they covered traps, hazards, and everything else too.

Generally, each expedition the role of Expedition Mapper would rotate, so all the players got a turn at mapping. The expedition maps themselves became a record of the dungeon, and exiting the dungeon often required back tracking through the dungeon to a stairway leading out of the complex. In random generation, you could find stairways leading out of the dungeon, and stairways leading down to lower levels, but it's worth noting that most of the published quests featuring random dungeon levels would change this, so that the only entrance/exit was the starting stairway on the 1st level. Since the only stairs down were often found in the first quest room, most GMs would be merciful and NOT require that the party head back through cleared levels, even between expeditions.

Interestingly, AHQ was the only game to consider expeditions as part of the main game, thus expecting dungeons to often be long and complex using the full AHQ generation rules and dungeon tiles. Neither HQ nor WHQ would explore this possibility, but they did often break down multistage quests, so the Heroes did technically get a chance to recover between each level.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 6:55am

Okay, let's get started on the deep dive of our first bit of rules - Characters. Always an early topic in most games, as the aim is to get players into the game and playing as soon as possible. Thus, they typically provided pregenerated characters that could be used straight away with minimal fuss.

HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Character Boards and Sheets
The character boards tell the players how many dice to roll. The character sheets are used to record each character's progress during the game. Each Board has a picture of the character, plus the following details:


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Under Zargon - Setting Up the Game
3. Character Cards

Spread the 4 Character Cards on the playing table. The number of dice and starting points are on each card.


It's interesting to see how the UK Edition of HQ combines details of the character boards, where as the US version treats them separately as a multi stage process (steps 4 and 5 cover the character sheet, see below).

Although this is mostly filler for wrapping upcoming details about characters ("following details:", UK edition), we can also see that the key point of the Character Cards (and Character Sheets in the UK Edition) is explained up front - to identify each Hero, and to present "how many dice to roll" (UK Edition) and their "starting points." (US edition).

You should note that the UK Edition only mentions "dice", and not anything about points. Although points are mentioned later, taken on it's own, this discrepancy could mean that even Body and Mind could be considered representative of how many dice to roll for certain checks, like poison (similar to how Mind works in later expansions). This is definitely an option to keep in mind, and many players may have already house ruled this ito their games of HQ.

Looking at the options, the combined HQ Combined English Edition Rule Book will use the UK version, with the US versions added detail of "starting points," as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Character Boards and Sheets
The character boards tell the players how many dice to roll and their starting points. The character sheets are used to record each character's progress during the game. Each Board has a picture of the character, plus the following details:





HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Character Type:
Copy this into the box provided on the character sheet. This will be "Wizard", "Barbarian", "Dwarf", or "Elf".


This only appears in the UK version, but it lists the four character types that the Heroes can choose. Interestingly, this is fairly standard for any adventuring party of four Heroes, as you can typically expect a party consisting of the following, using D&D classes: Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric. This covers the four main roles in a party, giving you a Tank, a Offensive Caster, Trapsmith, and a Support Caster (often Healer). It is also to see this combined with at least one character being a Dwarf (often Fighter or Cleric, for added tankiness), one character being an Elf (often the Wizard, for added reflexes and possibly other abilities/resistances), and one halfling (often the Rogue, smaller size and added dexterity, also possibly providing other abilities). The rest of the characters tend to be Humans, who are the "everyman" race of most games.

In the case of HeroQuest, we see the Barbarian fills out the Fighter role, the Wizard fits the Wizard role, the Dwarf fits the Rogue role (since there's no Halfling, and any conceivable dexterity issues with the Dwarf are mitigated by not having stealth in the game), leaving the Elf to fill the Cleric role. It's fairly standard as lineups go. Looking forwards, we will see this pattern repeated with some variation in both AHQ and WHQ. It's interesting to note that in AHQ and WHQ, the Elf pregen loses his spellcasting abilities, and instead gains a ranged attack, making them more of a Support Fighter. HQ is unique in this case for letting the Elf cast spells, and in AHQ, it is noted that the HQ Elf is actually a High Elf, rather than a normal Elf. Since in AHQ, Wizards lose the ability to use weapons other than Daggers and Runeswords, the HQ High Elf is balanced by forcing him to make a test in order to cast spells, which is identical to the penalty that Dwarf Wizards get because of the dwarven magic resistance in the Warhammer World. WHQ would see the HQ Elf return in the Elf Ranger warrior pack, which features a High Elf Warrior/Mage that can choose which aspect to focus more on as they develop.

In addition, AHQ replaces the Barbarian with a Warrior, basically making them even more of a tank and less of an offensive fighter like the Barbarian. This coincides with the fact that in AHQ, actual combat is downplayed compared to dungeon exploration, which is the complete opposite in WHQ (most dungeons are linear in WHQ). HQ is considered the most balanced between exploration and combat, depending upon the quest, although the finite predefined board often limits exploration almost, but not as quite, as much as in WHQ. This matches with HQ having a Barbarian as their pregen Fighter. The similarity in gameplay focus is why WHQ is often seen as the spiritual successor to HQ, and to a lesser extent AHQ.

Anyway, the HQ Combined English Edition Rule Book will use the passage from the UK Rulebook without changes, as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Character Type:
Copy this into the box provided on the character sheet. This will be "Wizard", "Barbarian", "Dwarf", or "Elf".





HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Body:
This is a measure of your character's physical strength. Copy the number shown into the Body box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Body points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is dead. Lost Body points can be healed by magic (spells and potions). This magic will never take the total above its starting level, however: it will only restore lost Body points.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Under Zargon - Setting Up the Game
Body Points

They reflect the Hero's physical strength. The Barbarian is the strongest with 8 points; the Wizard the weakest with 4 points.


Whilst the US edition states which Hero is physically strongest (Barbarian) and which is weakest (Wizard), it's the UK Edition which tells us what happens if you reach 0 Body Points (your character dies). This is useful information for us to have right up front if you are trying to get players into the game quickly. The US Edition waits right until explaining Zargon's Turn before talking about what happens when a hero reaches 0 Body Points, under the Monster Attacks action, but mentions losing body points throughout the text long before reaching this point.

Whilst it is common to have a seperate section for Character Death, often right after combat, it does help the player to know right up front what number represents whether or not their character is close to death and plan accordingly. Even the UK version as a seperate section for Character Death at the end of the combat section. This is used to imply, as in both the UK and US version, that combat is the most dangerous aspect of the game.

Finally, by noting that the Barbarian is the Strongest, and the Wizard is the weakest, the US rulebook implies the limits of Body Points for Heroes: with a Minimum of 4 and a Maximum of 8. However, since these limits are not specifically stated, it does allow for the possibility of Heroes stronger than the Barbarian (over 8 Body points) or weaker than the Wizard (less than 4 Body points), but in general, an implied scale is listed for Heroes. So, in descending order of physical strength (Body Points), we have the Barbarian (8 BP), Dwarf (7 BP), Elf (6 BP), and Wizard (4 BP).

In conclusion, the HQ Combined English Edition Rule Book (CERB?) will use the passage from the UK edition, with the added information from the US version about which Heroes are strongest and weakest. Note that the title will remain "Body" and not "Body Points", because we can fall back on the idea that Body points are also Body dice in the game. This is as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Body:
This is a measure of your character's physical strength. The Barbarian is the strongest with 8 Body points; the Wizard the weakest with 4 Body points. Copy the number shown into the Body box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Body points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is dead. Lost Body points can be healed by magic (spells and potions). This magic will never take the total above its starting level, however: it will only restore lost Body points.





HeroQuest UK 1st Edition Rules of Play wrote:Mind:
This is a measure of your character's wisdom. Copy the number shown into the Mind box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Mind points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is dead. Mind points will become more important in future expansions to the Hero Quest game.


HeroQuest UK 2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Mind:
This is a measure of your character's wisdom. Enter the number shown into the Mind box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Mind points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is eliminated.
Mind points are not used in the initial Quests. They will become more important in future expansions to the Hero Quest.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Under Zargon - Setting Up the Game
Body Points

They reflect the Hero's wisdom, intelligence and resistance to magical influence. The Wizard has the greatest mental strength with 6 points, the Barbarian has the least with 2 points.


It's interesting comparing the two versions of the UK Edition Rules of Play. They are almost identical, but the 2nd Edition has some slight changes - some of these are pure semantics ("Enter", rather than "Copy", for example), but the fact that "dead" is changed to "eliminated" is intriguing. The change would imply that Heroes with 0 Mind points are eliminated, and removed from the game as if they are dead, but are not actually dead. We know that in RotWL, there's a quest where the Heroes are trapped and subjected to gas that reduces their Mind to 0, and then they are recovered in the next quest (the one where the Dwarf and Wizard rescue the Barbarian and Elf). Eliminating Heroes from the Quest without killing them seems like an interesting idea, and it makes sense that eliminated Heroes would survive a Quest as long as the remaining Heroes don't all die (i.e. if they are eliminated or escape the Quest, but not if they reduced to 0 Body points).

The notice about Mind not being used in the initial Quests is italicised in the 2nd Edition UK Rules of Play. There must have been lots of questions about losing Mind points, I suspect, which is interesting because you DO get the Talisman of Lore, which increases a Hero's Mind points by +2. Why have an artefact that boosts an unused score, unless Mind attacks were planned to be used early on in expansions. For this reason, the Talisman of Lore is still considered a useless artefact by people with only the base HQ set.

All of the comments above about Body points also apply to Mind points here. However, for some reason, the US Instruction Manual does NOT mention Mind points at all, with no details on how they are used given. Rather, under the Zargon's Actions section, we have the rules for using Chaos spells, and some of them reference resisting spells through the use of rolling a combat die for every Mind point. However, it does note that Several of the chaos spells are not used in the first 14 Quests. I haven't looked to see which Chaos spells AREN'T used in the HQ Quest Book. I suspect most of the spells that can be resisted through using Mind points are the ones that are not used.

It's also interesting to see the US Instruction Manual states that the Wizard has the greatest amount of Mind points (6 points), whilst the Barbarian has the least Mind points (2 points). This allows us to make a scale and have some implied limits, just like Body points. Going from greatest mental strength to least mental strength, we have the Wizard (6 points), the Elf (4 points), the Dwarf (3 points), and the Barbarian (2 points). We can also note that typically, Body points + Mind points = 10 points, which is useful for creating characters.

In conclusion, the HQ Combined English Edition Rule Book will use the passage from the UK 2nd edition, with the added information from the US version about which Heroes have the greatest and least mental strength. Note that the title will remain "Mind" and not "Mind Points", because we can fall back on the idea that Mind points are also Mind dice in the game. We will also eliminate the note about Mind points not being used in the initial quests. This is as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Mind:
This is a measure of your character's wisdom, intelligence and resistance to magical influence. The Wizard has the greatest mental strength with 6 points, the Barbarian has the least with 2 points. Enter the number shown into the Mind box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Mind points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is eliminated.


Whew, that was a bit of a slog, and we've only covered Body and Mind points. However, so far, the text for the HQ Combined English Rulebook is as follows:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Character Boards and Sheets
The character boards tell the players how many dice to roll and their starting points. The character sheets are used to record each character's progress during the game. Each Board has a picture of the character, plus the following details:

Character Type:
Copy this into the box provided on the character sheet. This will be "Wizard", "Barbarian", "Dwarf", or "Elf".

Body:
This is a measure of your character's physical strength. The Barbarian is the strongest with 8 Body points; the Wizard the weakest with 4 Body points. Copy the number shown into the Body box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Body points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is dead. Lost Body points can be healed by magic (spells and potions). This magic will never take the total above its starting level, however: it will only restore lost Body points.

Mind
This is a measure of your character's wisdom, intelligence and resistance to magical influence. The Wizard has the greatest mental strength with 6 points, the Barbarian has the least with 2 points. Copy the number shown into the Mind box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Mind points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is eliminated.


If it looks like I am doing a lot of copy and pasting, it's because I am. This is typically how I do copy editing, using a line by line approach, using cut and paste for consistency. The fact that the entry for Body and the entry for Mind read similar, is so that it can be scanned quicker, as the reader already knows the text between key words defining what Mind is, thanks to the identical structure of the Body entry.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Shadzar » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 8:03am

Davane wrote:Interesting idea there. Modularisation is quite popular in procedural generation, and many dungeon crawlers (both video and tabletop) use them for set pieces. It's been popular since the 80's and the idea of geomorphs (maps you could use in various combinations and rotate to make random dungeons). You might want to check out some of the early D&D geomorphs if your idea has stalled because of a lack of map assets to use.

Yes, I have been playing D&D since 1982, and vehemently against more of it being injected into HQ or any game like it, and have and know the geomorphs and their style very well. ;)
Image

The intent was to make it so that you would not have as much diminishing returns with a static board like HQ has, but not as finicky such as Descent or Gloomhaven, and it required custom art assets.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 8:32am

Shadzar wrote:Yes, I have been playing D&D since 1982, and vehemently against more of it being injected into HQ or any game like it, and have and know the geomorphs and their style very well. ;)

The intent was to make it so that you would not have as much diminishing returns with a static board like HQ has, but not as finicky such as Descent or Gloomhaven, and it required custom art assets.


I wish I had been playing D&D since 1982. I was born in 1981. I still find it amusing that I happen to have a copy of the 1st Edition AD&D Rules, which was published in 1979 - two years BEFORE I was born!

Oh, and now I really want to GM that Shadzar dungeon...
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Shadzar » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 10:58am

Davane wrote:Oh, and now I really want to GM that Shadzar dungeon...


Go ahead. just like i tell everyone on Twitch, be sure to credit where you found it. :)

and there is no key, so you will have to add things to the rooms on your own ;)
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Cael Darkhollow » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 1:40pm

Davane wrote:The click-baity title is because of what I perceive to be the biggest flaw in HQ - issues regarding replayability and randomness. In it's own right, HQ is a great game, but once you have exhausted all the quest packs and so forth, unless you are in to designing your own quests, the game itself offers no real replayability.

Admittedly I was just starting to read the thread, but already felt compelled to comment on the lack of repeatability.
I've never had a group actually make it through all the quests ever.
Now granted I do have all the expansion packs, and both WhiteDwarf issues for a total of 80 boards to set up and play through. (14 base game, 1 euro variant, 10 KK, 10 ROTWL, 1 Adv. des. kit, 7 ATOH, 5 WOM, 1 four board parts adv. HQ, 10 BQP, 10 EQP, 2 part WD, 1 wd, 3 HQ novels, 1 Marvel winter special.)
I've never had any group get through even just all the North American quests.

Most of the time, my family game group (dad, brothers, nephews) gets the base game, KK, and perhaps part of WitchLord before they grind to a halt. A few years later they try again but have forgotten most of the locations. Some replayability exists if it is played strictly like a board game rather than a RPG style campaign.

Coworkers or casual friends get through a dozen or more quests in a marathon session at most. Super board game night or weekends.
My kids are still young enough they haven't played yet.

I really need to find a gamer group willing to go for the whole thing campaign style. Has anyone timed a session and averaged and tallied the hours needed to complete all quests? Im sure there are a whole lot of game hours required to actually finish every board as written by GW/MB.
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 5:34pm

Well, in the preamble of the US Instruction manual, it states that each quest can take between 1 and 2 hours each, so if you assume an average of 1.5 hours per quest, you get 21 base game hours, + 1.5 euro variant hours, +15 KK hours, +15 ROTWL hours, +1.5 Adv. des. kit hours, +10.5 ATOH hours, +7.5 WOM hours, 1* four board parts adv. HQ, +15 BQP hours, +15 EQP hours, 2 part WD gives +3 hours, 1 wd gives +1.5 hours, +4.5 HQ novels hours , +1.5 Marvel winter special. = 112.5 hours of gameplay (*without the Dark Company Quest).

The DC quest is actually a 13-stage quest, but on average, each stage is half the size of a normal quest. Thus, we could consider the total for DC being approximately 13 x 0.75 hours = 9.75 game hours. Adding this to the 112.5 hours already calculated, we get a total of 122.25 hours in total.

If you play 8-hour gaming sessions (i.e. like a working day), that means there's enough official content for just over 15 such sessions, or 15 workdays. For a more regular 4 hour gaming session, you are looking at just over 30 sessions. For full on 24 hour marathon sessions (weekend binges, sponsored events, ect.) you have just over 5 such sessions. Finally, if you only play one quest per session, then using our 1.5 hour average, you have enough content for 81.5 sessions (that's just over a year and a half of weekly gaming sessions).
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Tuesday March 9th, 2021 8:44pm

Moving on, it may seem that I am just ragging on the US Instruction Manual, but that's not true. All three versions did some things right and some things wrong, and the whole point is to take what is right from ALL three versions to create the HQ Combined English Edition Rule Book. Here's an example...

HeroQuest US Instruction Manual wrote:Attack Dice
They reflect the fighting power of the Hero's weapon. During the quest, the Hero's attack strength will continually be changed by events (spells, combat, etc.).


Meanwhile, we have:
HeroQuest UK 1st Edition Rules of Play wrote:The rest of the information on the character board (Attack, Defend, Move), is explained later in this rulebook.


Now, I can totally see why the UK version did that - they already paved the premise for what these do when talking about the Character Boards, and you wouldn't have to wait too long for these details, since the Way of the Warrior section dealing with movement and basic combat was on the next page. But, for consistency, it does help if these are actually covered in with characters like Body and Mind, so you know what they do from the start. Checking ahead, we can see that when these values are mentioned, they are NOT actually described in any way, because Attack is literally how many dice you roll to attack, and so on. It's literally this one sentence that will be repeated when we come to the relevant sections anyway. So for now, we will leave it. In the UK 2nd Edition, since the 1st Edition version left Attack until combat, so does the 2nd Edition, but it doesn't even mention that Attack will be covered later in the rules.

So, for us and the HQ CERB, if we want to include a description for Attack, we shall use the US version. Although simply using the US version breaks any form of consistency, we can always rewrite and pad out the description. Besides, if NuHQ has tweaked the rulebook, maybe they also fixed such issues with better descriptions.

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Attack Dice
They reflect the fighting power of the Hero's weapon. During the quest, the Hero's attack strength will continually be changed by events (spells, combat, etc.).





Next, we have a similar issue with Defend Dice, as only the US Instruction Manual provides us with any sort of description:

HeroQuest US Instruction Manual wrote:Defend Dice
They reflect the ability of the Hero to dodge or absorb enemy hits. During the quest, the Hero's defend strength will continually be changed by events (spells, combat, etc.).


Using the same logic, the HQ CERB will use this description for Defence Dice under the characters section.

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Defend Dice
They reflect the ability of the Hero to dodge or absorb enemy hits. During the quest, the Hero's defend strength will continually be changed by events (spells, combat, etc.).


That was easy...




Now, we hit a snag - Move or Movement is clearly listed on the boards, and the UK 1st Edition Rules of Play mentions it will be explained later, but the US Instruction Manual simply doesn't mention Movement, like it does with Attack Dice or Defend Dice. Thus, we have nothing to put here AT ALL. We COULD work something up ourselves though, as we can work out what the US version would say, from what the US versai has told us about Attack Dice and Defend Dice. We are NOT going to do that though, because right now, we are combining and comparing raw text, not making up our own text, so we should just note that this area isn't covered as it should. After all, if we decided to polish the HQ CERB (and prevent OCD minds from imploding), we are likely to do some editing through the entire document anyway.

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:(Movement)
...





Are we done yet? Not quite. There's a few more paragraphs under characters which are of interest to us:

HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Now you must think of a name for your character and write it in the box provided on your sheet. For example, the Elf might be called Ladril, the Dwarf Grungi, the Wizard might be Zoltan, the Barbarian Sigmar, and so on. Use whatever name you feel appropriate.

Finally, a blank shield is provided on each character sheet for you to to design your own coat-of-arms and motto.


So, essentially, we get to the Name and Description part of characters. The ability to create your own coat-of-arms is a nice touch in the UK edition, and exists primarily because in AHQ (which GW assumed you'd move on to in time), those character sheets also had a shield space for a coat of arms, and it was stated that that a player should paint the coat of arms of the shields of their Henchmen. Of course, this made it all the more tragic if your Hero died in AHQ, since you either needed to resurrect them, or face either buying new Henchmen models or repainting the shields of the ones you have already painted. We see what you did there GW...

What does the US Instruction Manual have for us? Turns out, not much, unfortunately. Steps 4 and 5 continue dealing with characters, as follows:

Hero Quest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Under Zargon - Setting Up the Game
4. Tear off 4 Character sheets from the pad (see below). Give each Hero player a sheet, a pencil, his Hero's Character Card and the matching red plastic Hero figure.

5. Direct the Hero players to fill in their Character sheets with the starting Body and Mind points of their characters. If they wish, they may name their character.

During the Quest, a Hero's Body and Mind Points will be affected by events. Points can be gained or lost. Body Points must be charted on the Hero's Character Sheet. Any treasure found on the Quest must also be recorded here. Players must save their sheets and bring them to each game session.


So, in all that, all we get is "If they wish, they may name their character" which isn't much. It does sound better than "Now you must think of a name for your character" though. It strange that so little thought is given to description for HQ heroes in general, and for the US version in particular. It's also funny how the UK versions were always very slightly more orientated towards Roleplaying, but that's probably because of GW's involved, as AHQ actively promotes itself as a "3d Roleplaying Game," and it's easy to see that GW saw HQ as little more than a gateway game to HQ; whereas the US version is the one that actively states that "Players must save their sheets and bring them to each session" in the style of roleplaying games of the era.

All in all, we will be best off using the UK version of these character details, and replacing the "now you must" with "if you wish," I just think it fits better, personally...

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:If you wish, you may think of a name for your character and write it in the box provided on your sheet. For example, the Elf might be called Ladril, the Dwarf Grungi, the Wizard might be Zoltan, the Barbarian Sigmar, and so on. Use whatever name you feel appropriate.

Finally, a blank shield is provided on each character sheet for you to to design your own coat-of-arms and motto.





So, that's us done for characters for now, and if we add the little we gleaned from this post to our text for Characters already, we get:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book wrote:Character Boards and Sheets
The character boards tell the players how many dice to roll and their starting points. The character sheets are used to record each character's progress during the game. Each Board has a picture of the character, plus the following details:

Character Type:
Copy this into the box provided on the character sheet. This will be "Wizard", "Barbarian", "Dwarf", or "Elf".

Body:
This is a measure of your character's physical strength. The Barbarian is the strongest with 8 Body points; the Wizard the weakest with 4 Body points. Copy the number shown into the Body box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Body points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is dead. Lost Body points can be healed by magic (spells and potions). This magic will never take the total above its starting level, however: it will only restore lost Body points.

Mind:
This is a measure of your character's wisdom, intelligence and resistance to magical influence. The Wizard has the greatest mental strength with 6 points, the Barbarian has the least with 2 points. Copy the number shown into the Mind box on your character sheet. During the game you may gain or lose Mind points. Keep track of your current score on your character sheet. If the total ever reaches zero, your character is eliminated.

Attack Dice
They reflect the fighting power of the Hero's weapon. During the quest, the Hero's attack strength will continually be changed by events (spells, combat, etc.).

Defend Dice
They reflect the ability of the Hero to dodge or absorb enemy hits. During the quest, the Hero's defend strength will continually be changed by events (spells, combat, etc.).

(Movement)
...

If you wish, you may think of a name for your character and write it in the box provided on your sheet. For example, the Elf might be called Ladril, the Dwarf Grungi, the Wizard might be Zoltan, the Barbarian Sigmar, and so on. Use whatever name you feel appropriate.

Finally, a blank shield is provided on each character sheet for you to to design your own coat-of-arms and motto.


That's not bad for the Character section of the HQ CERB, and is looking fine as a starting point for a prototype Character section for RandoQuest as well. Provides almost everything we need to know about character information of the Character Boards and why they are so important. Basically, we want players to be able to simply pick up a character and play, and with all this information, they pretty much can. AHQ lost out on not having character boards, even though you could use the rulebook pre-gens included. The Character Boards would return for WHQ, and brought back that tactile, pick up and play, board game feel, making it very much a spiritual successor to HQ in that regard.
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book (HQ CERB)
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Wednesday March 10th, 2021 9:56pm

So, time to move on from Characters, and on to the Way of the Warrior, which covers three basic topics - the Order of Play, Movement, and Combat. This selection would pretty much correlate with what would become the Introductory Game in the UK 2nd Edition, and the US Edition.

Hero Quest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Order of Play
Each player moves in turn, starting with the player to the left of the evil wizard player and continuing clockwise.

When it is your turn, you may both move and fight. You may move first, then fight, or fight first, then move. You may not take part of your move, fight, then finish your move.

On his turn, the evil wizard player may move some or all of his monsters currently on the gameboard. He moves each monster in turn. Monsters may first move then attack, or attack and then move as do the player characters.


Hero Quest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Order of Play
Play begins with the Hero seated to Zargon's left and continues clockwise. After all the Heroes have completed their turn, it is Zargon's turn. On his turn, Zargon may move all monsters currently on the gameboard. This sequence continues until the Quest is achieved or the Heroes leave the underworld.

Hint: A good starting setup would be for the Barbarian to sit to Zargon's left, followed by the Dwarf, the Elf, and then, seated to Zargon's right, the Wizard.


Hero Quest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:On Any Player's Turn
Whether playing the role of Zargon or that of a Hero, a player does one of the following on his turn:
* Moves his figure(s) and performs an action,
OR
* Performs an action and moves his figure(s)


In both the UK and US version, we see the basic gameplay loop is that each player takes a turn, and then the next player clockwise takes a turn, and so forth. All pretty standard for board games, but the US version does a much better job of making Zargon's turn different from those of the other players, who control the Heroes. The difference may be minor, but at this point, HQ is becoming increasingly like a RPG, with a party of Hero Players against the Evil Wizard Player. In contrast, the UK version remains that the Evil Wizard is a player like everyone else, except they have more potential models on the board.

It's nice to see that the US version actually provides a suggested turn order, thus cementing the standard turn order seen in HQ games, including the role of the Barbarian going first (and thus being party leader) that would come in to full fruition in WHQ with the Barbarian being the character who gets the Lantern (marking them as party leader).

The ability for each player to choose whether their characters move first or attack (act) first is interesting, as this is a process that is distinct from many board games, wargames, and roleplaying games of the time. A regimented approach to turn order stems from wargames, but even D&D at the time, was still shedding the idea that you didn't have to ALWAYS move, then act. As late as Basic D&D in 1991 (the edition I learnt from) was still using the move, then act, mechanics of the game. if I recall correctly, AD&D was only now beginning to see this flexibility as anything other than a house rule that would exist alongside personal initiatives.

However, I must point out that as written, the US Instruction Manual doesn't make it fully clear whether the Evil Wizard player can choose whether Monsters move first or act first on a per monster basis. It may seem odd that the Evil Wizard wouldn't be able to make this decision per individual monster, but this stipulation is an actual rule for the GM in AHQ - they have to choose whether all monsters will move first then attack, or whether they attack first then move. If you were playing solo, then this decision would be made using die roll.

We should note that in the UK edition, the rules are to choose whether a Hero moves first or attacks first, whereas the US version of the rules have them choose between moving first or performing an action first. Even in the 2nd Edition version of the UK rules, the terminology was that things like casting a spell or searching would take place "instead of attacking," and thus there was a bigger sense that the default of the game was to attack, harking back to the "move then attack" methodology of wargaming. In contrast, the US made it sound like there were a wider range of possible actions in the game, giving it a bit more of a roleplaying feel.

Ultimately, I think we will go with the UK version of the text, but with some rewriting, namely replacing the UK terms "fight" or "attack" with the US terms "perform an action." We will also include the suggested seating order from the US rules. Finally, with a bit of editing, because the evil wizard's turn sentence structure was annoying me, we have the following for the HQ CERB:

Hero Quest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Order of Play
Each player moves in turn, starting with the player to the left of the evil wizard player and continuing clockwise. Hint: A good starting setup would be for the Barbarian to sit to the evil wizard's left, followed by the Dwarf, the Elf, and then, seated to evil wizard's right, the Wizard.

When it is your turn, you may both move and perform an action. You may move first, then perform an action, or perform an action first, then move. You may not take part of your move, perform an action, then finish your move.

On his turn, the evil wizard player may move some or all of his monsters currently on the gameboard. He moves each monster in turn. Monsters may move first, then perform an action, or perform an action first, then move, as do the player characters.
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rule Book (HQ CERB)
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Re: Saving HeroQuest - RandoQuest?

Postby Davane » Sunday March 14th, 2021 12:42am

Time to move on to... Movement.

HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:Movement
The squares on the board are divided into two types of area: rooms and passages. The rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls). The passages are shown by the areas with light grey flooring. Passages may be one or two squares wide.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:On the game board, the corridors are shown by areas with light grey flooring. Corridors may be one or two squares wide. The rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls).


It's good to have the description of the spaces on the board, so we know what are rooms, and what are passages/corridors. It's worth noting that the UK edition uses the word "passage", whilst the US uses the word "corridor." These can be used interchangeably. For convenience, we will use the term "passageway" to refer to any space that isn't a room (i.e. any light grey tile).

In preparation for combining with RandoQuest, we will also note that passageways are broken down into "corridors" and "junctions." Corridors are any straight section of passageway that runs along the wall of a room, marked in light brown on the diagram below. Junctions are are section of passageway where two or more corridors join, marked in dark brown on the diagram below.

HeroQuest Board.png


So, for the HQ CERB, we have:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Movement
The squares on the board are divided into two types of area: rooms and passageways. The rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls). The passageways are shown by the areas with light grey flooring. Passageways may be one or two squares wide.

Passageways are further divided into corridors and junctions, as shown on the diagram below. Corridors are any straight section of passageway that runs alongside the wall of a room, marked in light brown. Junctions are any section of passageway where two or more corridors join, marked in dark brown.

HeroQuest Board.png





HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:The character boards show how many dice to roll to determine how many squares can be moved. Characters do not have to move the maximum distance indicated by the total of the dice.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:To determine how many square spaces to move, you must roll two red dice.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:You do NOT have to move the entire distance indicated by the dice roll.


Interesting to see the difference in detail given to the rules in the UK and US versions. The US versions specifically states that you must two red dice, thus "hard-coding" this value for Movement into the manual itself, where as the UK edition refers to the character boards.

For the CERB, we will go with:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:The character boards show how many red dice to roll to determine how many squares can be moved. Characters do not have to move the maximum distance indicated by the dice.


As an aside, I have removed the reference to the "total" of the dice. This is in preparation for a House Rule I am considering for RandoQuest, which I will briefly describe here for anyone interested. The explanations for this House Rule will be discussed in depth later on.

Basically, instead of rolling two red dice and combining them to get a total movement of between 2 and 12 squares, you roll two red dice and take the HIGHEST value, for a total movement of between 1 and 6 squares. This halves the speed of the Heroes and makes their movement slightly more reliable at the average movement of 4 spaces.




HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:The monster cards simply show the maximum number of squares that may be moved by each monster of that type.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:Monster Movement
Unlike Heroes, monsters do not move by dice roll. Each monsters maximum movement per turn is listed in the Monster Chart on the Information Screen, and also on the 8 Monster Cards. Monsters do not have to move the entire distance indicated on the Monster Chart.


Seems simple enough. The US version repeats that Monsters don't have to move the entire distance shown, simply because Monster Movement is detailed in a different section of the Instruction Manual. For the CERB, we will use the following:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Unlike Heroes, monsters do not move by dice roll. The Monster Cards simply show the maximum number of squares that may be moved by each monster of that type. Monsters do not have to move the entire distance indicated on the Monster Card.





HeroQuest UK 1st/2nd Edition Rules of Play wrote:When moving, characters and monsters may not:
  • move diagonally;
  • move through the same square twice;
  • move onto an occupied square. Characters and monsters may, however, pass through an occupied square, provided that the player controlling the obstructing model allows you to pass; otherwise you must take another route or stop. Only one model can occupy a square.


HeroQuest US Edition Instruction Manual wrote:When moving, however, you cannot pass over monsters, move through walls or move diagonally. You may only enter rooms through doors. You may not share a square with another Hero or with a monster. Exceptions: When on the stairs or in pit traps, sharing a square is permitted.


It's interesting to see some of the rules differences between the UK and US versions. The UK version didn't feel the need to mention that you can't move through walls, except through doors, in their neat little list. Meanwhile, the US version ditches the restriction against moving through the same square twice in a turn. Then there's the peculiar exceptions in the US version about sharing a square on stairs or in a pit trap - I'm not entirely sure that you would want to, apart from the fact that the US version allows you to search Pit Traps as if they are separate rooms.

Finally, look at the difference in how occupied squares are handled. In the UK version, the controller of the obstructing model decides whether you can pass or not, meaning that Heroes can block other Heroes from moving if they wish. In the US version, it a simple fact that only Monsters prevent Heroes from moving through them.

For the HQ CERB, we will go with the neatly organised list of the UK version. However, we will add that Heroes cannot move through walls from the US, and the Exception regarding sharing stairs and pit traps, just in case it is needed later.

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:When moving, characters and monsters may not:
  • move diagonally;
  • move through the same square twice;
  • move through walls. You may only enter rooms through open doors;
  • move onto an occupied square. Characters and monsters may, however, pass through an occupied square, provided that the player controlling the obstructing model allows you to pass; otherwise you must take another route or stop. Only one model can occupy a square. Exceptions: When on the stairs or in pit traps, sharing a square is permitted.





Combining everything on movement together, we have:

HeroQuest Combined English Edition Rulebook wrote:Movement
The squares on the board are divided into two types of area: rooms and passageways. The rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls). The passageways are shown by the areas with light grey flooring. Passageways may be one or two squares wide.

Passageways are further divided into corridors and junctions, as shown on the diagram below. Corridors are any straight section of passageway that runs alongside the wall of a room, marked in light brown. Junctions are any section of passageway where two or more corridors join, marked in dark brown.

HeroQuest Board.png


The character boards show how many red dice to roll to determine how many squares can be moved. Characters do not have to move the maximum distance indicated by the dice.

Unlike Heroes, monsters do not move by dice roll. The Monster Cards simply show the maximum number of squares that may be moved by each monster of that type. Monsters do not have to move the entire distance indicated on the Monster Card.

When moving, characters and monsters may not:
  • move diagonally;
  • move through the same square twice;
  • move through walls. You may only enter rooms through open doors;
  • move onto an occupied square. Characters and monsters may, however, pass through an occupied square, provided that the player controlling the obstructing model allows you to pass; otherwise you must take another route or stop. Only one model can occupy a square. Exceptions: When on the stairs or in pit traps, sharing a square is permitted.


That's not bad for the section on movement. It should be noted that the rules for HQ aren't very complex. The UK versions of the rulebook are 16 pages long, and the US version is 24 pages long. Compare this to the AHQ rulebook, which is 64 pages long, the WHQ Rulebook at 32 pages long, and the WHQ Roleplay Book which is a whopping 192 pages long. Thus, even though we are currently just working on the HQ Combined English Edition Rulebook, it makes sense to take the time to organise the sections so that they are clear and concise, so we know where best to add later sections as we collate our reference materials.
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"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

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