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Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Sunday June 14th, 2015 5:38pm
by cynthialee
The Admiral wrote:
knightkrawler wrote:
mitchiemasha wrote:
The Admiral wrote:When we played frozen Horror we Houseruled that the PWB could either make one 8 dice attack or two 4 dice attacks on separate targets.


That's how i'd interpret the rule.


Because you consider the PWB rule to overrule the game system's instruction manual?


in my humble opinion a special rule/ability overides the general rules.

I agree with this statement.

However I think perhaps there is every excuse for the individual players to tailor and make house rules.

I have never played this scenario out other than in my head a number of times. I must admit it is not a pleasant situation...
I do think perhaps there is a house rule to be made here...
Do not allow a Hero to roll their base defend dice but any armor, protection devises and shield dice could be rolled. So the Barbie has 2 base defend and say he has 2 extra dice worth of armor on one could say he could roll 2 dice instead of 4. Basically when facing a second attack from the same beast on the same round you loose your defend dice base from the defend roll.

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Thursday October 8th, 2015 7:29pm
by Daedalus
knightkrawler wrote:Wait a minute. Before your excerpt, on page 22:

    The monster makes an attack roll, blablablubb
    and then
    'If hit, the Hero immediately
    defends by rolling his Defend Dice.
    '

It even is italized as if Baker had something specific in mind.
So, in the case of two attacks are against the same hero, he gets to defend twice, both times following this above instruction and if the second attack results in a skull or more.
Keep in mind that defend is not an action but rather a reaction to each and every attack as this sentence clearly shows.

What I was on about was how Baker's rules could adapt to the BQP's one defense rule through conservation of extra white shields for a second attack. That perspective was meant to fit the original post about summing the Warbear's attacks within that expansion.

Now, if one chooses to not apply the BQP's one-defense rule in in favor of multiple defenses outside of that expansion, rock on! I'm inclined to agree with your interpretation and extension beyond single attack, single Body Point monsters of the original design. That Warbear was way overpowered and serves to illustrate the wisdom of using multiple defenses--for both Heroes and monsters. I only imagine that they put in the one-defense rule to keep a Warbear from resembling a pair of Chaos Warriors.

My favorite answer to the Warbear was put out by Count Mohawk. A Polar Warbear can still attack two opponents with 4 AD each (good-bye, Mercs), but it attacks a single opponent with 6 AD (hello, hurt). That plays more sensibly and fast.

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Thursday October 8th, 2015 8:54pm
by EvilWizardCharacter
When my group played through "The Frozen Horror" a few months back, we treated the Polar Warbear's attacks as absolutely unique per the rules on the card. The targeted Hero had to decide whether to defend the first rolled attack--via the Warbear's menacing club--or take that damage in preparation for an almost instantaneous second attack--via the Warbear's powerful paw. I think the mechanic is tremendous, making for some very stressful moments for the Heroes, especially leveled Heroes who are used to defending with five or six dice.

I am using the two-attack mechanic for a few of the lesser monsters--spiders both--in my original HeroQuest expansion, "The Labyrinths of Muroidea." Check it out @ evilwizardcharacter.wordpress.com

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Friday October 9th, 2015 3:04am
by Goblin-King
Always!

Edit: This was a reply to "in my humble opinion a special rule/ability overides the general rules." - a couple of posts made it in between making my statement seem random.

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Wednesday March 13th, 2019 10:22am
by devarionarias
I am relatively new to the BQP expansion and recently played the first (solo) quest 1 where Polar Warbear vs. Barbarian with starting equipment plus a shield is impossible for a new player, and extremely difficult for a veteran even! Reading the rules as written I played as two attacks and allowed the player to roll over any unused defend dice to the second attack (more or less out of pity). The player (who was a seasoned veteran of the base game playing a new barbarian), unfortunately, only pulled one healing potion from the treasure searches and perished very quickly.

It seems fair to rule it a bit differently or change up the map in this quest in particular by just replacing PWB. I think I'll try another couple play through of this one ruling it slightly different each time (using some of the suggestions here) and noting the results.

Just one polar warbear would be a good challenge as written for a fully equipped band of 4 heroes, I think.

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Wednesday March 13th, 2019 12:35pm
by Anderas
devarionarias wrote:I am relatively new to the BQP expansion and recently played the first (solo) quest 1 where Polar Warbear vs. Barbarian with starting equipment plus a shield is impossible for a new player, and extremely difficult for a veteran even! Reading the rules as written I played as two attacks and allowed the player to roll over any unused defend dice to the second attack (more or less out of pity). The player (who was a seasoned veteran of the base game playing a new barbarian), unfortunately, only pulled one healing potion from the treasure searches and perished very quickly.

It seems fair to rule it a bit differently or change up the map in this quest in particular by just replacing PWB. I think I'll try another couple play through of this one ruling it slightly different each time (using some of the suggestions here) and noting the results.

Just one polar warbear would be a good challenge as written for a fully equipped band of 4 heroes, I think.


Try giving the Barbarian no equipment at all, but then give him one from each mercenary: A Scout, a Swordsman, a Helbardier, a Crossbowman. I recently playtested it with Kitch and clmckay and it worked.

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Wednesday March 13th, 2019 1:10pm
by devarionarias
Anderas wrote:Try giving the Barbarian no equipment at all, but then give him one from each mercenary: A Scout, a Swordsman, a Helbardier, a Crossbowman. I recently playtested it with Kitch and clmckay and it worked.


Thank you, Anderas. I'll give it a try!

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Wednesday March 13th, 2019 1:26pm
by arch8ngel
I know this is a bit of an old topic and that the recent comments aren't in regards to the original question... but maybe someone could clear up for me where the original confusion came from in the first place?

The rules-as-written are:

(1) Rulebook Page 22 "How A Monster Attacks"

2nd Paragraph -- "If hit, the Hero immediately defends by rolling its Defend Dice"

This pretty clearly states that ANY attack from a monster that generates at least one "hit" gives the hero a chance to roll their Defend Dice.

(2) Rulebook Page 22 "How A Hero Defends"

This paragraph provides no restrictions on how many attacks a hero may defend against, it just states the mechanics of the defend dice (i.e. white shields negate one skull each)

(3) Polar Warbear Card

"Special Ability: Two Attacks"

On its face, this just seems to imply that the Warbear can make two attack actions that would EACH follow the rules of the BQP Rulebook above

(4) Barbarian Quest Book -- Monster Chart

"The Polar Warbear attacks once with its mighty paw and once with its spiked mace. Two attacks can be made against one opponent or one attack can be made against each of two different opponents"

This just gives flavor to the simple wording on the monster card.
And certainly doesn't say anything to imply that the Rulebook rules don't work essentially exactly as written.


EDIT:

nevermind, pointed out in the next post what I missed was the "Rules Clarification" from a few pages into the Barbarian Quest Pack book...

(5) Rules Clarification

"Multiple Attacks: A Hero rolls defend dice once for each attacking monster ... A Hero attacked by a monster with multiple attacks (such as a Polar Warbear)...gets only 1 defend roll against the monster per turn, no matter how many of the monster's attacks are directed at the Hero.


That one seems pretty cut-and-dry, after all |_P

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Wednesday March 13th, 2019 2:02pm
by Anderas
In the beginning of the BQP questbook is a paragraph with "rule clarification". There it is stated quite directly.

It comes directly after the drawing of the female Barbarian.

Re: Polar Warbear double attack

PostPosted: Wednesday March 13th, 2019 2:23pm
by arch8ngel
Anderas wrote:In the beginning of the BQP questbook is a paragraph with "rule clarification". There it is stated quite directly.

It comes directly after the drawing of the female Barbarian.


Just didn't read far enough, thanks. (was trying to skim the online version of the quest book and probably missed it due to the formatting)


In that case, I'd think the implication is that the hero will probably naturally defend against the first attack only if it scores a hit (otherwise defends against the second).

(and in a roleplaying sense that works in that you, as the hero, probably can't will yourself to absorb an attack in order to defend against a second -- and if you did, you'd be in no shape to defend against the second anyway as you'd be reeling from the first attack)


I think, conceptually, that better follows the portion of the rulebook that covers Monster-attack/Hero-defense, as well, in that the first successful attack automatically triggers the hero's defense (they don't necessarily need to get a choice in the matter).